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on this episode of skeptico

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the truth about what happens after we

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die

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now i could jump right into that truth

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with today's outstanding guest william

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peters but why go with the straight

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truth when we can mix in a little bit of

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hollywood stephen king fantasy crazy

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stuff

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a clip

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you can hear me

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your magic like me i don't know about

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magic

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that's from the movie doctor sleeping

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and while that clip sure is scary and

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spooky the movie does stumble onto some

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kind of real truth about the afterlife

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and in particular the transition to the

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afterlife that can be experienced by

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other people who are in the room it's

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called a shared death experience and

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you're gonna hear about it in this

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amazing interview i have coming up

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but first another clip from the movie

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we're danny and yes this is danny from

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the shining all grown up anyway danny is

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in hospice with this older gentleman

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who's dying and danny is experiencing

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what a visit from

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dr sleef

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really is so what do you see doc

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i see your twin sons

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four years old

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can you see them

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i do

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good

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look at that i could take a card

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all out of order

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not scared of hell

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i i lived a

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decent

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life don't think there is such a place

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anyway

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there's nothing

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we don't end charlie

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i know that for certain

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i don't know much else but

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i know that we don't end

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not bad but how about this how about one

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of the world's leading authorities on

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shared death experience a

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psychotherapist who studied it for over

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30 years

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runs an organization with multiple phds

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including medical doctors who've looked

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at the phenomenon so what does today's

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guest william peters find

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how about this story imagine this at

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this point this guy's already had a very

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traumatic near-death experience when he

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was just 17 years old nearly killed him

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very nearly paralyzed him he recovers

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from that and he dedicates his life to

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kind of service winds up through a

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series of events working with homeless

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people people in need in san francisco

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and as he's telling the story that he's

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about to tell circa 1980s this happens

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to be a lot of people who have

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contracted aids and are dying and are

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completely shunned and ostracized by

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society so they're living in these

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burned out buildings in the worst parts

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of downtown san francisco this is back

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in the day when there were worse parts

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of san francisco now it's all

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million-dollar condos nonetheless

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william has his first encounter with a

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story that is a shared death experience

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it's unbelievably remarkable this is

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among the most important

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research scientific medical research

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that's coming back to us right now

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because again when we say share death

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experience these are a group of people

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living people

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who witnessed that transition that

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crossing over and when you study it

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scientifically

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like today's guest william peters has

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done it lines up with so many other

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things we know about survival so here's

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one of the stories from the interview

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you're about to hear

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i said brad

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would i be able to talk to your other

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um brothers

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and you know he was like

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kind of okay but like really like he's a

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little bit hesitant you know i'm still a

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mental health worker you know and you

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know we have not treated this community

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well

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quite frankly

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um but we had a good enough relationship

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so i remember going down there taking

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this long walk you know from you know

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from the tenderloin district of san

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francisco across market street this was

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a abandoned many buildings burned out it

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was not safe drug deals prostitution

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and there we are we hike up one set of

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stairs

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cement only concrete only and there

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is these tents and a fire pit

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and

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some of his brothers are there but this

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was midday and so there's just a few of

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them there but they had been there and

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so i remember talking to them and i

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asked them and they looked at brad as if

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to say do you want us to share this

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and

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they acknowledged an experience

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that was profound but what i and i knew

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in their eyes that it was profound and

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they talked about the light

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and they talked they also stumbled upon

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their words

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because as i learned later now with you

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know hundreds of interviews the

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ineffability of this experience but they

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gave me enough to know like okay

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we are talking about a shared experience

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one of the things i think is so

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incredible about that again putting

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these pieces together so you've had a

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near-death experience so you're open but

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when we step back

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this is so

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paradigm-shattering

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that i just don't think many people

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would be put in that position where they

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could absorb any of that i'm going to

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add another piece of information that

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was also central in this i was living

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and working in central and south america

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and most of the people i was working

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with were indigenous people

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these were shamanistic cultures and i

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was listening

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and i remember hearing these

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expressions of journeys

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this is the language that these imada

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people were sharing with me as i would

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spend a good deal of time with them

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and and it fit because my near-death

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experiences you've so

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keenly um

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identified as a you know

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transformational experience in my

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consciousness if you will and my

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understanding of how this world is put

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together

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their experiences fit with that

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so that's great and it's really an

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amazing interview and i could just leave

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it at that but i can't help poking in

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there with a little bit of skeptical

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stuff because as somebody like this ups

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the game in terms of bringing such

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important important science to the table

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i think we have to equally up our game

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in terms of bringing

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the inquiry to perpetuate doubt

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that's excellent and i'm sure that

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you're gonna be effective and make a

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difference just like you've made a

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difference already

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i have a slightly different spin on it

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my take is number one

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we are all leading rich spiritual lives

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and as plain and ordinary as that might

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seem to you and i we have to look at the

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fact that that completely contradicts

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the paradigm that we're all in

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second point for me is that we all have

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the ability to choose the light

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at any time and every time

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and along with that for some reasons

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that we don't

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totally understand some people don't

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choose the light and people

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choose the darkness

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consistently sometimes and unfortunately

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what we've witnessed and we have to come

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to grips with is

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some of those people have reached

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very very powerful and influential

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positions add to that the fact that

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their motives

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and who they are is often hidden and

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deceptive

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so with that it this is the working

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hypothesis this is the other part going

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a little bit further that i'm not asking

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you to agree with but i just want to

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throw on the table and that is as it

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relates to medicine and religion there's

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obviously many many many the majority of

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people in medicine are working in a

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heartfelt

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light warrior kind of way

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but the

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unspoken directive of western medicine

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is to disconnect you from your

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spirituality to disconnect you from your

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divinity because you can have it both

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ways they could jump over tomorrow to

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your understanding of this broader view

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of consciousness this more accepting

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view of divinity and nothing would have

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to change in medicine so the fact that

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they hold on to it i think is important

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and it can't be overlooked

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and then i think when we look at

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religion

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i think there's the same thing going on

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in a lot of ways and that is

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wonderful people amazing experiences

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that people are having with the

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spiritual

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but fundamentally an unspoken directive

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to become the soul or at least primary

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intermediary between you and divinity

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between you and the light between you

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and spirituality that's what religion

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wants to do

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stick around my interview with william

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peters is coming up next

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karas

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and today we welcome

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william peters to skeptico

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william is the founder and director of

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the shared crossing project and author

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of the newly published

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at heaven's door what shared journeys to

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the afterlife teaches about dying well

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and living better

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he's very smart guy undergraduate degree

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berkeley masters harvard

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long-time psychotherapist lots of

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advanced training which we might even

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talk about very interesting stuff there

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and you know beyond all that

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william is one of these people who just

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has

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an amazing life of service to others

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and

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that's going to come out as we talk

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about his story we're going to talk

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about this share death experience

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science

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and the very researchy stuff that he

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does and that's great

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but what i hope we get to is

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the spiritual stuff that is really i

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think at the core

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of what this guy's work is all about so

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william congrats on the book and thanks

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so much for joining me on skeptico

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alex thanks so much for having me it's a

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real honor to be here

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very nice of you to say so you know i

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guess the natural place to start because

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a lot of people have heard of shared

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death experience

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but plenty people haven't

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give us a quick definition

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and then we'll talk a little bit about

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your background

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yeah so

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the shared death experience happens when

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somebody dies

288
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:26,079
and a caregiver loved one and sometimes

289
00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:27,440
a bystander

290
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,160
will report that they feel like they

291
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:32,720
shared in this journey

292
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:36,480
from the human life into the afterlife

293
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:38,800
and the afterlife is the term that our

294
00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:41,040
research participants use they say

295
00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:42,880
afterlife and they often say that it's a

296
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:44,880
benevolent afterlife

297
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,480
great and the backstory on this is

298
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:50,560
amazing it can jump off in a million

299
00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:52,639
different ways but

300
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:54,240
you came to this

301
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:56,800
because you had a near-death experience

302
00:12:02,069 --> 00:11:59,760
when you're 17 years old which really

303
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:02,079
pivoted your life in some i guess

304
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:04,000
ultimately positive ways but also some

305
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:07,760
challenging ways and it leads you to

306
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:10,959
sitting in a seminar with dr raymond

307
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:13,519
moody who a lot of people know and go oh

308
00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:14,959
yeah he's the guy who coined the term

309
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:18,160
near-death experience which he did

310
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:20,800
but he's also the first person to talk

311
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:23,120
about the shared death experience and i

312
00:12:27,350 --> 00:12:24,880
love the way you talk about the

313
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:27,360
circumstances that brought you there and

314
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:30,079
then you weren't even aware of this but

315
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:32,880
in a way that echoes at several points

316
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:34,160
in your life

317
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:35,200
it's like

318
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:37,440
making sense for you

319
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,360
of these experiences that you've had

320
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:42,160
that didn't make sense before so

321
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,160
maybe you want to walk us through

322
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:46,800
your your story which is really quite

323
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,399
remarkable

324
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:50,079
thanks yeah i think you're right you

325
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:51,600
contextualize this a bit because you

326
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,320
know i wasn't the type of guy

327
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,160
who in high school could see myself

328
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:58,079
studying death and dying and spiritual

329
00:13:03,190 --> 00:12:59,680
experiences around them

330
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:03,200
but at 17 years old i had a

331
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:06,399
really you know tragic uh

332
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,160
near-death experience in a skiing

333
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:10,000
accident high-speed skiing accident

334
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:11,920
crushed my spine

335
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,320
was catapulted out of my body i mean for

336
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:16,560
your audience it's a classic near-death

337
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:19,200
experience moving away from

338
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,519
my body on the ski slope

339
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:23,519
very much at peace

340
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,160
completely sublime feelings watching my

341
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:28,240
life be reviewed

342
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:29,200
for me

343
00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:30,959
seeing the teachings of karma right

344
00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:32,959
there like the intricate detail of this

345
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:35,440
movie of my life was just stunning

346
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,760
everything mattered and then i'm in this

347
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:39,519
beautiful galaxy moving through the rib

348
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:42,240
tunnel i see the light

349
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:43,839
and when i see the light i had a

350
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:48,320
response very unlike most indie ears and

351
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,880
that is i i knew i was dying and i knew

352
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:52,560
i'd been there hundreds if not thousands

353
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:54,320
of times before

354
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,480
but i also did not want to die as

355
00:14:01,750 --> 00:13:58,800
pleasant as this place was that i was in

356
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,760
i was not ready to die and i pled

357
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:03,760
with i grew up catholic so i played with

358
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:06,000
god and said don't let me die don't let

359
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:07,120
me die

360
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:10,480
and i was essentially in that light for

361
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:12,880
a long period of time it felt like very

362
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:14,000
comfortable

363
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,399
very much at peace but then at one point

364
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,320
you know after my pleading

365
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:21,199
i felt this pushback energetically on my

366
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:22,160
being

367
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:23,040
and

368
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:26,160
in that moment i heard make something of

369
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:27,519
your life

370
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:30,160
and that was it and that was ominous uh

371
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,839
statement to me i don't know what that

372
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:33,600
meant but i think unconsciously i've

373
00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:35,199
been working out that

374
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,519
command for quite some time because i'm

375
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:39,760
very much aware that i was given a

376
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:42,959
second shot at life here and you know

377
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:46,079
the severity of that skiing accident was

378
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:48,079
that you know an orthopedic told me i

379
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:51,680
was 1 32 of an inch away from being a

380
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:53,040
paraplegic

381
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:55,440
and so i've lived with chronic pain

382
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:56,399
and

383
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:00,800
have you but so that experience got into

384
00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:01,920
me but i

385
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,440
i did not

386
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:05,440
think of that experience

387
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:07,199
for another decade as far as i can

388
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,920
remember uh but it did change me and i

389
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:11,120
appreciate you

390
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:13,839
bringing up that this kind of service

391
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,000
mission that i seem to have gravitated

392
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:18,880
towards in my life because

393
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,440
after college i

394
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,800
went straight to central and south

395
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:24,720
america and found myself in the midst of

396
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:27,120
two civil wars each in

397
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,920
guatemala and the other in peru and was

398
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:32,160
working with a great deal of death and

399
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:35,279
destruction and poverty and famine and

400
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:37,440
hunger and what have you

401
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,880
and i was there ostensibly i thought to

402
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:42,320
help but the truth of the matter is

403
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:43,759
these people were teaching me how to

404
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,880
deal with my own sense of pain and loss

405
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:48,480
that i was feeling because i was in

406
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,279
really

407
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:52,800
severe pain in my back and body so

408
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:54,320
um the other thing that happened is i

409
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:56,480
came back worked in the aids epidemic in

410
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:58,480
san francisco i was a social worker i

411
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,720
was hired because i spoke spanish but

412
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:02,880
the aids epidemic broke out

413
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:04,160
and

414
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,240
i ended up working with uh this

415
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:08,480
community of mostly gay men who were

416
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:09,600
dying

417
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:11,920
in skid row in san francisco and at that

418
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,680
time we didn't know

419
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:15,680
much about the hiv virus we didn't know

420
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,759
it was contagious how it was you know we

421
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:18,959
didn't know the extent of the

422
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,199
transmissibility of it so for me working

423
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:22,800
with this community was considered high

424
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,000
risk

425
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:26,399
but i just felt comfortable and called

426
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:27,680
but the reason i'm bringing this up

427
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:29,680
primarily is i was starting to hear

428
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,639
these profound end-of-life stories i

429
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:35,040
just want to tee up a couple of things

430
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:36,720
because i really want to hear that story

431
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,680
i want to tell people that in the book

432
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,920
you will find so many of these

433
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:43,120
incredible

434
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:44,800
and i'm reluctant to even call them

435
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,959
stories because

436
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:48,480
william is a professional

437
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:51,759
psychotherapist on his team he has a

438
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,000
very top-notch medical doctor an

439
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:56,800
anthropologist these are case studies

440
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:59,040
that they've done interviews so he's

441
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,240
going to tell these stories which are

442
00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:02,639
incredibly dramatic and the book is

443
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:05,439
just a treasure trove of these

444
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:06,880
case studies that are very well

445
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:09,919
presented but they really weave together

446
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:11,360
into this whole

447
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:14,400
narrative of your life so i i just want

448
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:16,959
to add one other thing you know when you

449
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:20,640
have your near-death experience at 17

450
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:23,199
you have nowhere to hang that off of in

451
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,919
terms of near-death experience there is

452
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,720
no

453
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:29,360
near-death experience raymond moody

454
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,000
unbeknownst to you has just coined the

455
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:33,919
term a couple years ago

456
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:35,520
and then

457
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:37,520
this the amazing thing about this story

458
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:40,000
you're about to tell is you're about now

459
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:43,200
to experience a shared death experience

460
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:46,400
which absolutely no one is talking about

461
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:47,919
but again

462
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:50,880
in this way that we don't understand

463
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:53,919
your life is being

464
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:57,440
given these events that you were then

465
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:00,720
asked to kind of weave together so

466
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:03,039
please tell us tell us this first kind

467
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:05,679
of amazing story

468
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:08,720
yes so i'm you know a social worker in

469
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:10,320
san francisco

470
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:11,679
and

471
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:15,600
this is a population that is

472
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:18,880
experiencing incredible devastation

473
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,760
death

474
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:21,520
it's like a plague

475
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:22,559
so

476
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:23,440
their

477
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,600
willingness to

478
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:27,039
come to me

479
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:29,760
for not just emotional

480
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,320
spiritual support if you will but also i

481
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:34,000
was providing

482
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,080
food for them and you know all sorts of

483
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:37,840
supplies because

484
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:40,320
this individual who um i mentioned in

485
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:43,600
the book who was such a wonderful man

486
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:45,760
brad was coming to me

487
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:47,679
you know almost on a weekly basis he

488
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:52,080
lived in a community of homeless

489
00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:53,360
dispossessed

490
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:56,799
as he called them brothers all all

491
00:19:01,990 --> 00:18:58,080
contracted

492
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:02,000
aids and in a just a temporary community

493
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:03,760
if you will in a burned-out building in

494
00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:05,440
san francisco

495
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,520
so he's coming regularly

496
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:09,760
and one morning he

497
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,200
comes into me

498
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,440
early first one through the door and he

499
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:16,160
looks absolutely exhausted beleaguered

500
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:18,080
and i say to him i go

501
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:21,200
oh my gosh brad what's up

502
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:26,000
and he says to me you know um randy died

503
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:28,320
i said i'm so sorry

504
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:30,799
and he responds um

505
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:32,400
yeah so am i

506
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:35,280
but it was such a beautiful death

507
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:38,000
and then i'm taken back and i respond

508
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:39,760
beautiful death

509
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,919
please tell me

510
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:43,280
and

511
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:46,160
as i'm in our food pantry filling up his

512
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:49,039
bags of food for his community he

513
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,280
is recounting this story

514
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:53,600
and it goes like this he says we were

515
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,480
circled around randy we knew he was

516
00:20:00,870 --> 00:19:58,480
you know at death's door

517
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,880
and at the moment of death

518
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:02,240
he

519
00:20:08,149 --> 00:20:04,960
rises out of his body through a cylinder

520
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,159
light and we we watch him rise up this

521
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:10,799
light and he stops just above us

522
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:12,960
looks around at us

523
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:16,000
and he thanks each of us for caring for

524
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,200
him

525
00:20:22,149 --> 00:20:19,360
and what we notice about

526
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,159
uh randy is that he is now healed

527
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:25,280
his body that was covered with lesions

528
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:26,000
and

529
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:27,919
you know those deaths in those days with

530
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,880
carpostus sarcomas just ugly death he

531
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:32,320
has none of that

532
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:34,960
and he's telling us

533
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,720
he's free of his body and he's happy and

534
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:40,080
then he

535
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:42,400
travels further up that cylinder of

536
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:45,520
light and is gone and all these brothers

537
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:48,720
this community are rejoicing and hugging

538
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:49,679
and

539
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:52,559
feeling this beautiful goodbye

540
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:53,520
of

541
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,760
their beloved friend randy

542
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:57,280
and so

543
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:58,880
you know

544
00:21:02,230 --> 00:21:00,720
i think brad when he was sharing this

545
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:02,240
story as well as others he would share

546
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:03,679
with me because as i learned in my

547
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,679
relationship with brad even previous to

548
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:07,440
this he was what we would call

549
00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:10,320
psychopomp he was somebody who

550
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:12,159
maybe a death duel or a midwife in

551
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:15,360
modern parlance he knew how to help

552
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:17,280
people

553
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,120
leave this human life and go on to the

554
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:21,760
next so he was that leader almost a

555
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,600
shaman in this community but very

556
00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:25,760
informal you know these are all you know

557
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:27,919
ad-hoc communities if you will

558
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:28,720
and

559
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:31,200
so but but he was as he was sharing this

560
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:33,200
with me almost matter of fact almost

561
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:36,880
checking me out but i always believed

562
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:39,200
uh brad and others who shared these

563
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:40,400
stories with me and i think

564
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,559
unconsciously i believed it because i

565
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,640
had that first near-death experience and

566
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:46,640
they you know raymond moody and now have

567
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:49,120
had subsequent conversations about this

568
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:52,320
is we believe these are the same

569
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,559
experience in terms of capacity of

570
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:57,520
phenomena why because they're taking

571
00:22:02,549 --> 00:21:59,679
place in that same

572
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:02,559
terrain that same geography that lives

573
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,840
between human life human death and what

574
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:07,360
comes after this

575
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:09,120
i just want to interject one thing

576
00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:12,080
william because the scientist in you

577
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:14,000
even at the time

578
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,360
yeah you believe it because you had a

579
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:17,120
near-death experience but if i remember

580
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:19,919
correctly you go there right you go

581
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:22,240
there and you ask the right not everyone

582
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:24,559
would do that so thank you yeah thank

583
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:27,760
you so i was so fascinated by this

584
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:28,720
um

585
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,640
you know and

586
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:32,400
i said brad

587
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,080
would i be able to

588
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:36,000
talk to your other

589
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:38,240
um brothers

590
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:41,520
and you know he was like kind of okay

591
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:43,760
but like really like he's a little bit

592
00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:45,840
hesitant you know i'm still a mental

593
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,080
health worker you know and you know we

594
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,960
have not treated this community well

595
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:52,159
quite frankly

596
00:22:56,390 --> 00:22:54,320
um but we had a good enough relationship

597
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:56,400
so i remember going down there taking

598
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:57,120
this

599
00:23:01,510 --> 00:22:58,880
long walk you know from you know from

600
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:01,520
the tenderloin district of santa of san

601
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:04,799
francisco across market street down into

602
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:07,360
the old area which is now south of

603
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:09,039
market now in the

604
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:11,360
late 80s early 90s south of market is

605
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:13,760
not what it is today this was a

606
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:16,240
abandoned many buildings burned out it

607
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:19,840
was not safe drug deals prostitution

608
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:22,400
and there we are we hike up one set of

609
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:23,679
stairs

610
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:27,440
cement only concrete only and there

611
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:30,480
is these tents and a fire pit

612
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:31,840
and

613
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:33,360
some of his brothers are there but this

614
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:35,520
was midday most of the because i went

615
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,840
during my lunch hour most of them were

616
00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:40,159
out doing what people who are are

617
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:42,799
without a home do during the day they go

618
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:45,440
and get services they forage for food

619
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:47,360
and so there's just a few of them there

620
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:48,559
but they had been there and so i

621
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:49,840
remember talking to them and i asked

622
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:52,240
them and they looked at brad as if to

623
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:55,440
say do you want us to share this

624
00:24:02,310 --> 00:23:56,480
and

625
00:24:05,269 --> 00:24:02,320
they acknowledged an experience

626
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,279
that was profound but what i and i knew

627
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:07,360
in their eyes that it was profound and

628
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,760
they talked about the light

629
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:11,520
and they talked but they also did

630
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:12,400
something

631
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:14,400
really interesting they also stumbled

632
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:16,240
upon their words

633
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:18,720
because as i learned later now with you

634
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:20,480
know hundreds of interviews the

635
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,200
ineffability of this experience when

636
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:25,440
you're talking to someone who's well

637
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:26,640
dressed

638
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:30,080
as they were not a mental health worker

639
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,000
they're a little tentative and scared

640
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,159
you know and and they're living in a in

641
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:36,720
a building that is not theirs

642
00:24:42,789 --> 00:24:37,520
so

643
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,799
this this is the psychotherapist in me

644
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:44,320
at that time i wasn't licensed that

645
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,080
point but that's the the person who's

646
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:48,480
sensing in saying oh this is really hard

647
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,720
for them to talk about but they gave me

648
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:53,440
enough to know like okay

649
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:56,240
we are talking about a shared experience

650
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:58,880
and it was i mean just to look at their

651
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,720
eyes and they're looking at brad as if

652
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:02,720
to say do you want us

653
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:05,360
to share this with him and brad

654
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:07,360
knowledge yeah you can trust him

655
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:08,400
one of the things i think is so

656
00:25:12,149 --> 00:25:09,919
incredible about that again putting

657
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,159
these pieces together so you've had a

658
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:14,960
near-death experience so you're open and

659
00:25:20,470 --> 00:25:17,200
then you're open enough in all these

660
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:20,480
other pretty terrific ways to connect

661
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:23,440
with these people and hear this story

662
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:25,440
but when we step back

663
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:29,840
this is so paradigm shattering that i

664
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:32,159
just don't think many people would be

665
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,000
put in that position where they could

666
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:36,799
absorb any of that because again this is

667
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:41,120
way way outside of anything we consider

668
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:43,919
within this consensus reality

669
00:25:47,110 --> 00:25:45,440
thing that we talk about here and we're

670
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,120
going to talk about that some more but i

671
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:49,200
don't want to lose the fact that

672
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:52,000
this is paradigm shattering we're

673
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:54,240
talking about a group of people

674
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:57,600
who collectively experienced

675
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,679
this connection with

676
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:01,760
the the afterlife

677
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,840
through this person who is making that

678
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:05,279
transition

679
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:07,279
i mean i just like i could say it over

680
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,559
and over again

681
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:10,559
that's so remarkable it's so remarkable

682
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:13,120
and it's so remarkable that you were the

683
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,200
person who was there

684
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:17,760
because you were uniquely able to

685
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,480
take that experience and run with it the

686
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:22,320
way that you have with this book and

687
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:24,000
with this project and with this whole

688
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:25,120
thing

689
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:26,640
yeah well thank you for saying that you

690
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,840
know i'm going to add another piece of

691
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:29,919
information that was also central in

692
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:31,840
this and that is you know i was living

693
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:34,080
and working in central and south america

694
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:37,039
and working with refugees of

695
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:40,000
um of these civil wars there and most of

696
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:41,279
the people i was working with were

697
00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:42,799
indigenous people

698
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:46,159
uh the armada indians uh in southern

699
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:49,679
peru and and also of course in bolivia

700
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:52,400
these were shamanistic cultures and i

701
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:53,919
was listening

702
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:56,400
and as i was you know learning my

703
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,840
spanish i mean we're both speaking

704
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,440
second languages to each other so when

705
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:01,600
you have that appreciation you talk

706
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:04,640
slower you clarify things and i remember

707
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:08,880
hearing these expressions of journeys

708
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:12,080
this is the language that these imada

709
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,559
people were sharing with me as i would

710
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:16,640
spend a good deal of time with them

711
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,960
and and it fit because my near-death

712
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,640
experiences you've so

713
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:22,559
keenly

714
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:25,279
identified as a you know

715
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,799
transformational experience in my

716
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:28,480
consciousness if you will and my

717
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:30,080
understanding of how this world is put

718
00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:31,120
together

719
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,520
their experiences fit with that because

720
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:35,679
they talked about

721
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:38,240
dream travel and going to other realms

722
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,320
it was a part of their reality so having

723
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,640
just spent three years in these in this

724
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:46,640
environment coming back and getting my

725
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:48,880
first job and then hearing brad and

726
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:51,120
others talk about this was like

727
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:52,320
oh

728
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:53,760
okay

729
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,080
you know this makes sense to me it all

730
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:58,640
kind of fits together and i will say

731
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:01,200
i'm a pretty good synthesizer of things

732
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:02,880
and that with my receptivity and

733
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:04,880
openness i will say

734
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:06,559
that's one of the things i think i do

735
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,760
well i struggle with a lot of other

736
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:09,360
things but that's something i can do

737
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:10,320
okay

738
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:12,320
so near the end of the book again the

739
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:14,240
book is at heaven's door

740
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:15,760
you really want to check it out i think

741
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,760
you'll really enjoy it it is somewhat of

742
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:19,600
a page turner with all these stories

743
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:22,240
it's it's not weighted down but it's

744
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:24,240
also a personal book near the end you

745
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,520
talk about the passing of your dad

746
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:29,600
you talk about it in a very complicated

747
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,559
way with the family relationship which i

748
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:34,720
appreciate all family relationships are

749
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,159
complicated

750
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:39,039
but it's also a really important story

751
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,520
it's like a bookend to this

752
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:43,600
to this book you know and it wraps up a

753
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:45,120
lot of things and brings them all

754
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:46,640
together in a way

755
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,120
could you would you mind telling about

756
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:51,200
that story

757
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,720
sure so

758
00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:54,480
um

759
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:57,440
yeah here i am

760
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:01,760
with my family my father has been

761
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:04,559
in a memory care facility for

762
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:06,000
a number of years

763
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:08,720
and we are in covet and so no one has

764
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:11,760
seen my father so this is just again

765
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,120
this is present day now you've gone on

766
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:18,080
20 years of working with

767
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:20,320
in in grief therapy

768
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:23,120
being completely immersing yourself in

769
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:25,600
all this near-death and after death

770
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,240
hospice stuff you're like an expert in

771
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:29,919
a million of these different fields but

772
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:31,200
you are like

773
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,039
one of the foremost experts on this

774
00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:35,919
shared death experience when your dad is

775
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:38,320
approaching his crossing so now you're

776
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:39,120
like

777
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,559
from one end

778
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:43,200
with brad where you're kind of this what

779
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:44,640
is this thing

780
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:46,880
now you're like one of the leading

781
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:49,440
experts in the world at this with your

782
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:50,880
at your dad's crossing would you say

783
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,960
that's fair to say

784
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,440
i'd say that's true yeah i mean and to

785
00:29:59,430 --> 00:29:57,760
be really clear there are not very

786
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:59,440
there's only a handful of people are

787
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:00,720
even looking at the shared death

788
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,440
experience and i i should that's not

789
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,200
your problem that's not your problem

790
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,360
that i mean there should be thousands so

791
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:09,120
you know that's like yeah that's not

792
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:11,679
like a mark against you

793
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:13,840
no i'm yeah absolutely and you know and

794
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:17,360
i i should say you know i the research i

795
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:19,520
as a researcher i you know we have a

796
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,919
great team here i mean i have dr michael

797
00:30:26,149 --> 00:30:23,679
consella who's our

798
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:26,159
chief of research and comes at this from

799
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:26,960
uh

800
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,960
cognitive sciences and you know dr

801
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,960
monica williams an emergency room

802
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:35,039
physician these we're really tackling

803
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:36,720
this multi-disciplinary

804
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:38,960
lee in a way so that we can really

805
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:40,640
look at what these experiences are but

806
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:43,919
in the moment that i'm with my father

807
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:46,399
all that doesn't matter

808
00:30:51,190 --> 00:30:49,440
here i am with my father we have been

809
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,200
granted access

810
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:53,279
just as there's been an opening in covid

811
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:54,399
we're still

812
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,240
dressed in ppe

813
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:58,320
and we're doing sitting vigil now with

814
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:00,240
with him my my brother and sister and my

815
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:03,279
mother all taking kind of

816
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,279
shifts if you will

817
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:07,360
but i had the opportunity to be with him

818
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:10,640
most of the day you know four days

819
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:12,880
and

820
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,909
um a couple things happen that i'll

821
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:22,240
share one is

822
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:23,679
i'm

823
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:25,919
all of a sudden

824
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:27,840
i'm pulled into a different space and

825
00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:30,320
this is a common experience so here's

826
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,559
the thing that is really important as an

827
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,320
experiencer i've had probably a couple

828
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:36,720
dozen shared death experiences

829
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:39,039
and the thing that is the kind of the

830
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:41,519
gateway experience to it is there's

831
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:45,120
usually a shift in energy a frequency

832
00:31:50,549 --> 00:31:48,320
shift that i notice in my body

833
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,559
there's a focused

834
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:52,720
uh attention in other words my the

835
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,440
aperture for my life gets narrow i hear

836
00:31:59,190 --> 00:31:57,679
a high pitch in my ears

837
00:32:01,430 --> 00:31:59,200
and this is all energetic stuff

838
00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:01,440
happening and then the light changes

839
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,760
and this is all happening and then all

840
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,799
of a sudden

841
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:05,840
boom

842
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,679
i'm in another dimension

843
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:09,600
and i am

844
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:12,720
seeing my grandmother

845
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:14,480
and my aunt who had

846
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:17,600
both died a couple decades earlier

847
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,480
and they're there and they are looking

848
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:22,000
it looks like they're at the foot of the

849
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:24,080
bed elevated dark background it looks

850
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:26,320
like they're looking down at my father

851
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:28,559
that's the angle i'm getting

852
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:31,039
and then i see this man

853
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:32,640
come across

854
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:35,840
uh who wishes to to actually talk to my

855
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:37,840
mother

856
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:40,240
i never seen him before but i recognized

857
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:41,840
him energetically as my grandfather

858
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:44,159
because he died when i was two years old

859
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:45,279
and

860
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:47,360
he has a beautiful exchange with my

861
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:50,320
mother and i say that's more you can see

862
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:51,200
that in the book because there's

863
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,640
something really important that happens

864
00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:53,919
there

865
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:56,559
but i'm now wondering

866
00:33:01,909 --> 00:32:59,200
why are we not taking my father he is

867
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:01,919
laboring he has he's ready to go and i'm

868
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:03,519
wondering why

869
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:05,519
why are we not taking him

870
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:07,039
why are you i'm actually talking to my

871
00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:08,240
grandmother and aunt why aren't you

872
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:09,440
taking him

873
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,200
and i can see this cylinder of light

874
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,679
coming down from where they are about a

875
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,279
quarter of the way almost to my father's

876
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:17,279
body and i get this sense i've seen

877
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:18,960
these before and we see it in the

878
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:21,360
research this light is often a bridge

879
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:23,440
for the dying to travel up as they leave

880
00:33:28,549 --> 00:33:24,880
oh we saw that i just talked about that

881
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:28,559
with brad and randy what he saw so

882
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,279
this amazing experience happens and that

883
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:33,760
is that they they

884
00:33:37,110 --> 00:33:36,080
both my aunt and my

885
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:37,120
grandmother

886
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,640
avert their gaze and they move out up up

887
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:43,600
above my father's body basically

888
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:46,159
and they basically telepathically tell

889
00:33:55,909 --> 00:33:50,710
this

890
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:55,919
what i really say is he's in charge like

891
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:56,880
he

892
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:59,919
as a as i move my attention

893
00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:01,200
over

894
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,320
to that

895
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:05,200
presence if you will and i lock my

896
00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:07,200
energy field into it and i don't know

897
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,960
how that happens other than

898
00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:10,560
i just move my attention there and i

899
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,960
feel this pull on my heart

900
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:14,639
and

901
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,720
bam i go oh my gosh

902
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:21,119
this is that force that i have

903
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:22,960
identified in the research as the

904
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:24,560
conductor

905
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:30,480
manages the transition

906
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:32,720
of a human spirit soul call it what you

907
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:34,879
want consciousness from a human body

908
00:34:41,349 --> 00:34:37,040
into the afterlife

909
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:41,359
and when i lock on that i feel the

910
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:42,399
awesome

911
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:43,599
power

912
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,480
and force of this being and it is just

913
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,560
the energy is coursing through my body i

914
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:50,960
start weeping right there i go oh my god

915
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:52,399
i mean i can weep right now i mean

916
00:34:58,069 --> 00:34:55,359
that's the conductor that's this force

917
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:58,079
that is gonna take my father from this

918
00:35:03,030 --> 00:34:59,599
human life

919
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:03,040
into an afterlife and just in that

920
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,800
moment i don't have words for it it's

921
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:07,680
like it's the majesty of the universe

922
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:08,960
it's like

923
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,359
it's this great mystery and it is so

924
00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:13,359
awe-inspiring and

925
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:14,320
uh

926
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:17,359
heartwarming i don't have words for it

927
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,190
and so

928
00:35:25,829 --> 00:35:23,040
at that moment

929
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:25,839
right as i'm feeling this

930
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:28,240
my brother walks into the room

931
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,119
and

932
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:31,359
that moment is lost as i'm pulled back

933
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:34,640
into the material human dimension

934
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:36,160
and unfortunately i was never able to

935
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:37,440
get it back

936
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:39,280
um because then my brother's there

937
00:35:43,829 --> 00:35:41,359
conversation goes on even though i

938
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:43,839
should say my my mother and sister were

939
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:45,200
there with me when i was having that

940
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,800
experience

941
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,240
they were they were we were very much

942
00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:50,079
kind of in silence or just like there

943
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:52,560
was a there was a vigilness going on

944
00:36:02,069 --> 00:35:59,270
so my father dies peacefully beautifully

945
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:02,079
and then afterwards

946
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:03,520
i

947
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:14,240
the moor came and to the excuse me to

948
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:17,200
the funeral um you know authorities came

949
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:19,119
to take his body the mortuary i should

950
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,000
say

951
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:22,000
and so

952
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:23,440
during this time another beautiful

953
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:25,760
experience happens his caregivers who'd

954
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:27,599
been taking care of him during coven

955
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:30,640
because there's no family members there

956
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:32,000
knock on the door

957
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:33,680
and ask if they can come in to pay their

958
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:34,880
last

959
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:37,839
respects and i was like well

960
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:39,520
thank you yes

961
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:41,920
so six of these beautiful

962
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,000
caregivers

963
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,720
from all over the world alex these were

964
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:49,040
these were people that you know were

965
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,320
speaking english as their second

966
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,480
language most of them i mean they were

967
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,720
fluent but

968
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:56,640
it was like oh my gosh

969
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:59,440
there are these beautiful people

970
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,720
that are here to take care to say

971
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:02,640
goodbye to my father and they said the

972
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:05,119
most beautiful things about my father

973
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:06,880
and and now

974
00:37:09,829 --> 00:37:08,480
you alluded to this and i did go into

975
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:09,839
more detail in the book i had a

976
00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:11,359
challenging relationship with my father

977
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:13,599
he was a business person and a venture

978
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:16,240
capitalist and he'd done well in silicon

979
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:18,880
valley he could not understand

980
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:19,680
um

981
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:20,560
his

982
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,800
spiritual son

983
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:24,240
he just couldn't

984
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:26,079
um and

985
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,040
he couldn't understand even the

986
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:29,920
psychotherapist he he just didn't just

987
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,119
jive with him so we had a a relationship

988
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:35,520
that had some tension in it

989
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,040
certainly distance and more than

990
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,440
anything else a lot of disappointment

991
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:40,960
about not being able to see each other

992
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,400
and connect

993
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:44,560
and i express that to

994
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:47,520
my father to his corpse

995
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:48,839
saying

996
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,200
ah you had such a wonderful loving

997
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:53,359
relationship with these caregivers but

998
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:54,800
we didn't have that

999
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,359
and i'm sad about that and in that

1000
00:38:01,430 --> 00:37:59,200
moment

1001
00:38:02,829 --> 00:38:01,440
i'm in another visionary state and i'm

1002
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:02,839
watching the

1003
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:05,920
movie a movie

1004
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:09,040
that has scenes that some i know

1005
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:10,880
that i can kind of remember

1006
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,280
but most of them i could not

1007
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:15,599
in other words oh my gosh where are you

1008
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:17,599
getting this footage from

1009
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,640
because

1010
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,119
that was not anything i remember i i

1011
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:24,079
would remember the the place maybe

1012
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,240
or that that chapter of our lives

1013
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:28,640
together but that but the

1014
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:32,000
actual scene and the feelings and the

1015
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,839
expressions no

1016
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,079
and so for me this is you know this is

1017
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:38,079
that what we call that shared life

1018
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:39,200
review

1019
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:43,520
together

1020
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:44,640
and in the

1021
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:45,839
you know in our research we've

1022
00:38:49,589 --> 00:38:47,440
identified three different types of life

1023
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:49,599
reviews this is one of them

1024
00:38:53,990 --> 00:38:51,359
where you're reviewing your life with

1025
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:54,000
the departing loved one together

1026
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:55,760
and

1027
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,160
it was healing for me to see that there

1028
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:01,200
were times when i knew that he loved me

1029
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:02,800
as best he could

1030
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:05,119
and there was also the delivery a very

1031
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:07,119
important message and that is that my

1032
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:08,560
father

1033
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:12,720
he was a human being as well

1034
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:14,960
who had his own

1035
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:19,280
challenges traumas tribulations

1036
00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:23,440
you know his father died young and he

1037
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:25,760
lived a life with that grief and not

1038
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,560
having the tools to work with it the way

1039
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:31,359
i was given tools to work with it my own

1040
00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:35,440
grief so these are very very healing um

1041
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:38,320
experiences uh this life review

1042
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:39,760
and

1043
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:43,280
for us when we look at the shared death

1044
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:44,800
experience

1045
00:39:49,109 --> 00:39:46,720
that

1046
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:49,119
you said quite well it challenges our

1047
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,720
scientific medical

1048
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:53,119
perspective on things absolutely you

1049
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:55,119
know here we are i'm in a relationship

1050
00:40:00,790 --> 00:39:58,240
with having these experiences you know

1051
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:00,800
with a consciousness seemingly that

1052
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,079
by

1053
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:04,400
fiscalism cannot exist anymore and here

1054
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:06,400
i am having this experience with what

1055
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:08,240
i'm experiencing

1056
00:40:12,069 --> 00:40:10,079
interpreting as his consciousness in

1057
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,079
some way there's some way we are

1058
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,359
still in relationship even though he is

1059
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:17,359
you know this is now an hour or two

1060
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:19,119
after his physical

1061
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:21,440
uh human death medical death i should

1062
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:24,000
say so

1063
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:26,079
but the transformation that i

1064
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:27,760
experienced in my relationship to my

1065
00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:29,280
father because of the shared death

1066
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:32,480
experience was so healing and this is

1067
00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:34,160
you know i'm a psychotherapist i work in

1068
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,400
end of life and i want

1069
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:38,560
these experiences to be known because

1070
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,920
they're healing they're fascinating but

1071
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:44,000
but they're more than anything else they

1072
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:45,200
offer

1073
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:46,880
a different

1074
00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:49,280
wholly more meaningful and healthy way

1075
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:51,920
to look at not just death itself but

1076
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,280
what

1077
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:55,440
is the purpose and meaning and context

1078
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,400
for our human life the sense that we

1079
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:00,480
survive human death

1080
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:02,079
and go on

1081
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:04,640
and it's that going on piece that the

1082
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:07,520
shared death experience seems to lay a

1083
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:08,640
pretty

1084
00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:10,240
uh solid

1085
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:12,560
foundation for especially when you pair

1086
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:14,079
it with the near-death experience

1087
00:41:19,670 --> 00:41:15,119
because

1088
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:19,680
it is the same terrain we are in the

1089
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:23,040
same space and we have done the research

1090
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:24,800
to verify that

1091
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:26,560
yeah that's uh that's quite

1092
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:29,200
extraordinary and i want to pick up on

1093
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,200
that and kind of jump back and forth

1094
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,160
between those two aspects of the

1095
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:37,680
scientific and our consensus reality

1096
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,440
and

1097
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:41,520
where all the stuff seems to be really

1098
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:44,800
happening in this extended consciousness

1099
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,880
reality that

1100
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:48,640
we don't really have

1101
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:50,640
a handle on and you're trying to help us

1102
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,720
get a handle on it so the best way i

1103
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,000
know how to do that is kind of do it

1104
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:56,560
skeptical style a little bit

1105
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:59,119
which you led me right into because near

1106
00:42:01,750 --> 00:42:00,720
the end of the book

1107
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:01,760
man

1108
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:04,720
you take the gloves off william i mean

1109
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:06,560
you take the gloves off regarding the

1110
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:08,960
medical community you really call them

1111
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,359
out in their lack of wisdom about the

1112
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:13,520
dying process about the end of life

1113
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,000
process you rip into the religious and

1114
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:18,560
faith communities in a very appropriate

1115
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:21,599
way about their handling of it and you

1116
00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:24,400
even take aim at

1117
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:28,640
your own people there in in hospice and

1118
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:30,079
particularly people who are focused in

1119
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:32,000
end of life and again i think you do it

1120
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:33,280
in a very

1121
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:36,960
honest way a terrific way

1122
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:39,839
my only complaint would be that you

1123
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:42,240
don't even go far enough

1124
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:43,440
and uh

1125
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:45,520
i want you to talk about i want you to

1126
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:47,200
talk about that a little bit and then i

1127
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:48,400
want to

1128
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:51,599
kind of throw out my working hypothesis

1129
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:53,200
on that so

1130
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:54,720
tell me tell me where you're at on that

1131
00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:57,040
i thought it was very brave of you to do

1132
00:43:00,950 --> 00:42:59,599
because you're a professional and you

1133
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:00,960
this is your community and you're

1134
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:02,960
willing to kind of call them to task

1135
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,560
great

1136
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:05,920
yes

1137
00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:07,280
so

1138
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:10,319
you're correct i was

1139
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,599
very much

1140
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,800
walking

1141
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,880
a line here i

1142
00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:16,720
work with

1143
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:18,880
you know healthcare providers

1144
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:21,760
mental health providers specifically

1145
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,400
hospice workers of all kind end-of-life

1146
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:26,720
practitioners across the board

1147
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:27,760
and

1148
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:31,200
i know the constraints

1149
00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:32,880
that these

1150
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:34,720
dedicated workers

1151
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,560
are under right now during the covid

1152
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:38,880
let's let's face it i mean

1153
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:41,599
the every system that provides any kind

1154
00:43:48,870 --> 00:43:45,520
of uh health care is just going

1155
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,880
far and beyond uh what would be expected

1156
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,040
of a normal human being and the amount

1157
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:53,280
of care and attention and care you know

1158
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:54,560
and compassion and love that they're

1159
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:56,800
providing for us so and i work with

1160
00:44:01,829 --> 00:43:58,880
these people and i love them

1161
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:01,839
but the point being here

1162
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:03,520
is

1163
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:04,880
that

1164
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:07,599
this is a top-down system

1165
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:11,280
and the top of this food chain is

1166
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:14,800
medical sciences and that is locked in a

1167
00:44:20,710 --> 00:44:18,800
paradigm that cannot explain

1168
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:20,720
near-death experiences share death

1169
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:23,040
experiences and for that matter

1170
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:25,440
most end of life phenomena whether it's

1171
00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:26,880
post-death dreams and visions or

1172
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:28,960
pre-death end-of-life

1173
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:31,200
dreams and visions all of that

1174
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:33,839
is utterly unexplainable by our current

1175
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:37,359
scientific materialist model

1176
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:39,359
there are so many good people within

1177
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:41,040
that system that know about the

1178
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:43,280
experiences i'm talking about

1179
00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:44,560
and yet

1180
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:50,079
fundamental

1181
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:56,630
a resource

1182
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:58,319
research based

1183
00:45:03,349 --> 00:45:00,800
that they could go to their

1184
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:03,359
supervisors their higher ups and say

1185
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,119
look at the data is here now

1186
00:45:11,589 --> 00:45:09,680
now alex

1187
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:11,599
the share crossing research initiative

1188
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:12,720
which i've already said but it's

1189
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,319
comprised of you know dr michael

1190
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:16,480
kinsella our chief of research

1191
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:18,720
uh and then dr monica williams an er

1192
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:19,839
physician

1193
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:21,760
we have published

1194
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:22,560
in

1195
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,079
the american journal of hospice and

1196
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:26,480
palliative medicine that is a leading

1197
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:29,520
journal this is a foundational piece

1198
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,520
that basically validates the shared

1199
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:34,000
death experience with a robust

1200
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,280
research

1201
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:37,440
qualitative of course

1202
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:39,680
but it's robust and it's significant and

1203
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:41,440
it's getting attention

1204
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,400
we're also just published in omega

1205
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:46,560
journal of death and dying

1206
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:52,710
we're we have now put our stakes in the

1207
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:53,839
ground

1208
00:45:58,710 --> 00:45:55,359
in both the academic and medical

1209
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:58,720
communities and this book now connects

1210
00:46:03,990 --> 00:45:59,599
the

1211
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:04,000
books a general audience book for sure

1212
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:05,200
but

1213
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:06,960
the leading you know the people that are

1214
00:46:10,069 --> 00:46:08,800
really buying this up now in droves from

1215
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,079
what i've been told are all sorts of

1216
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:12,640
hospice workers and end-of-life workers

1217
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:15,040
and and mental health people because

1218
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:17,760
they know that these experiences happen

1219
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:20,400
but they want to know how they can talk

1220
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,480
about them and have

1221
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:24,160
a literature

1222
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,000
scholarly literature that can back them

1223
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:28,400
up because you can't talk about these

1224
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,720
experiences in a lot of medical settings

1225
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:32,720
without being

1226
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:35,040
essentially reprimanded

1227
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:36,240
like don't talk about those

1228
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,640
hallucinations those are delusions

1229
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,480
don't don't affirm

1230
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,480
something that's not real

1231
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:44,800
and so now my as i to answer your

1232
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:46,480
questions directly my goal is for this

1233
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:49,200
book and our research to put a wedge

1234
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:52,319
right in there just to get space so that

1235
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:55,119
good people working every day with death

1236
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:57,440
and dying have the support and

1237
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,160
affirmation to say hey i can talk about

1238
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:02,319
this here's the data

1239
00:47:08,309 --> 00:47:04,960
yeah that's that's excellent much needed

1240
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,319
and i'm sure sure sure that you're gonna

1241
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,079
be effective and make a difference just

1242
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:12,400
like you've made a difference already

1243
00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:15,520
i have a slightly different spin on it

1244
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:17,680
my take is number one

1245
00:47:23,589 --> 00:47:20,720
we are all leading rich spiritual lives

1246
00:47:25,589 --> 00:47:23,599
and as plain and ordinary as that might

1247
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:25,599
seem to you and i we have to look at the

1248
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:28,319
fact that that completely contradicts

1249
00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:31,359
the paradigm that we're all in

1250
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:34,240
second point for me is that we all have

1251
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:36,720
the ability to choose the light

1252
00:47:42,390 --> 00:47:40,079
at any time in every time

1253
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:42,400
and along with that for some reasons

1254
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:43,760
that we don't

1255
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:46,000
totally understand some people don't

1256
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:48,160
choose the light and

1257
00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:49,440
people

1258
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:52,880
choose the darkness consistently

1259
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:55,760
sometimes and unfortunately what we've

1260
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:57,440
witnessed and we have to come to grips

1261
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:58,559
with is

1262
00:48:03,349 --> 00:48:00,880
some of those people have reached

1263
00:48:04,829 --> 00:48:03,359
very very powerful and influential

1264
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:04,839
positions

1265
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:08,000
and add to that the fact that their

1266
00:48:11,349 --> 00:48:09,280
motives

1267
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:11,359
and who they are is often hidden and

1268
00:48:14,790 --> 00:48:12,559
deceptive

1269
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:14,800
so with that it this is the working

1270
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,800
hypothesis this is the other part going

1271
00:48:20,950 --> 00:48:18,640
a little bit further that i'm not asking

1272
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:20,960
you to agree with but i just want to

1273
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,200
throw on the table and that is as it

1274
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,599
relates to medicine and religion there's

1275
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:28,079
obviously many many many the majority of

1276
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:31,680
people in medicine are working in a

1277
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,040
heartfelt

1278
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:35,520
light warrior kind of way

1279
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:36,640
but the

1280
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:40,160
the unspoken directive of western

1281
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:43,760
medicine is to disconnect you from your

1282
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:47,040
spirituality to disconnect you from your

1283
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:51,280
divinity that is a directive that is in

1284
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:53,599
there this is my hypothesis not yours

1285
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:56,319
it's not like oh because you can have it

1286
00:49:02,390 --> 00:48:59,280
both ways you don't have to

1287
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:02,400
you could they could jump over tomorrow

1288
00:49:07,829 --> 00:49:05,119
to your understanding of this more

1289
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:07,839
broader view of consciousness this more

1290
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:10,000
accepting view of divinity and nothing

1291
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:11,440
could change nothing would have to

1292
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:13,520
change in medicine so the fact that they

1293
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:15,760
hold on to it i think is important and

1294
00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:18,160
it can't be overlooked and then i think

1295
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:19,520
when we look at

1296
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:21,040
religion

1297
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:23,520
i think there's the same thing going on

1298
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:26,319
in a lot of ways and that is

1299
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:29,440
wonderful people amazing experiences

1300
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:30,880
that people are having with the

1301
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:34,319
spiritual but fundamentally an unspoken

1302
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:36,640
directive to become

1303
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:39,520
the sole or at least primary

1304
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:42,079
intermediary between you and divinity

1305
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:43,760
between you and the light between you

1306
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,160
and spirituality that's what religion

1307
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:48,319
wants to do you know

1308
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:49,920
so

1309
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:51,680
it's a little bit

1310
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,720
darker than where you're at i understand

1311
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:56,640
with the wedge and in the line that you

1312
00:50:00,549 --> 00:49:59,040
have to take i just want

1313
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:00,559
to let you know that

1314
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:03,040
that's what's on the table for me even

1315
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:04,720
if i'm not going to be there all the

1316
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:05,680
time

1317
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:07,280
and

1318
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:09,599
hey you know what i i again i appreciate

1319
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:12,160
the book because you're willing to at

1320
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:14,160
least go part of the way there and as

1321
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:16,160
one of your colleagues dr monaco

1322
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:18,400
williams in the book we're talking about

1323
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,559
at heaven's door puts it you know

1324
00:50:25,870 --> 00:50:22,800
doctors are trained this is her quote to

1325
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:25,880
be body engineers working inside a

1326
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,240
disease-based system

1327
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,319
and

1328
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:32,880
i don't know it's kind of

1329
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,190
you bring up to

1330
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:40,710
extraordinarily

1331
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:43,359
relevant points about the role

1332
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:44,319
of

1333
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:51,040
relationship to humanity to the

1334
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,559
subjects if you will that they're

1335
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:54,480
charged with caring for

1336
00:51:02,710 --> 00:50:55,839
i

1337
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:02,720
more often than

1338
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:06,559
i wish i had to admit and acknowledge

1339
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:08,960
there is absolutely and dr monica

1340
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:11,440
williams was very clear in stating this

1341
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:13,520
that

1342
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:16,079
the training for doctors

1343
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:19,760
uh uh it's changing but historically

1344
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:22,720
body engineers is what they are

1345
00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:25,920
and to look at spirituality

1346
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:28,559
and the notion that that the being

1347
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:30,400
they're working on

1348
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:32,160
actually is more than just a physical

1349
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:34,000
body

1350
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:36,480
our medical system is getting there and

1351
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:38,000
there are certainly people within the

1352
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:39,760
system i assure you i work with these

1353
00:51:43,589 --> 00:51:41,680
good people every day that hold that and

1354
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:43,599
they're and they're trying to transform

1355
00:51:46,870 --> 00:51:45,280
the system

1356
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:46,880
but i would be

1357
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:50,319
not true to myself and my experience

1358
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:51,359
to

1359
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:54,079
deny what you're saying does not that

1360
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:55,760
perspective is operative and it takes

1361
00:51:59,589 --> 00:51:57,440
place in our medical system

1362
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,599
far too much every day

1363
00:52:05,589 --> 00:52:02,240
and i want to be an agent of change in

1364
00:52:08,950 --> 00:52:05,599
that sensitive to the training they had

1365
00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:08,960
offering the entire system uh a more

1366
00:52:11,230 --> 00:52:10,160
holistic

1367
00:52:14,549 --> 00:52:11,240
and more

1368
00:52:17,109 --> 00:52:14,559
science-based true science let's look at

1369
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:17,119
this phenomena let's listen to these

1370
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:19,599
good people who have these experiences

1371
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:21,920
who knew nothing about them i have

1372
00:52:27,109 --> 00:52:24,319
identified a pattern that is so

1373
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:27,119
difficult to deny let's look at this as

1374
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:28,480
scientists

1375
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:29,359
not

1376
00:52:34,870 --> 00:52:31,040
as

1377
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:34,880
people who are devoted to a paradigm

1378
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,040
that doesn't hold up but they need to

1379
00:52:41,109 --> 00:52:38,880
hold on to it because that's how you

1380
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:41,119
maintain your membership in the medical

1381
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,400
club

1382
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:44,960
i believe me i have some fierceness in

1383
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:47,200
me about that because i don't want to

1384
00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:50,960
tell you how many times i have been with

1385
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:53,359
you know my clients patients and they're

1386
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:56,319
receiving medical care for a body but

1387
00:53:01,349 --> 00:52:58,319
the soul and spirit is telling everyone

1388
00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:01,359
in the room i want to go home

1389
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:02,400
and

1390
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:04,559
the medical community is committed to

1391
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:07,440
prolongation of human life at all costs

1392
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:10,559
so that human spirit with emotions and

1393
00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:11,680
feelings

1394
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,559
is

1395
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:14,319
being

1396
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:17,440
hijacked by the medical model and this

1397
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,559
is all not ideal let alone

1398
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,160
it's not ideal it's not healthy for

1399
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:24,000
everyone in the room dying and

1400
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,280
caregivers so alex i'm with you i just

1401
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:29,440
want to also say that it's

1402
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:31,760
the model is what it is but there are so

1403
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:33,680
many good people in it trying to change

1404
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,240
it and i i put my

1405
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:38,079
support and connection and community

1406
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:39,839
with those because they reach out to me

1407
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:42,079
all the time saying william can you talk

1408
00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:43,680
here can you speak at grand rounds can

1409
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:45,280
you do this i want you to meet this

1410
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:47,440
person we're we've got an opening here

1411
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:48,319
you know

1412
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:49,440
um

1413
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:52,160
and there are a lot of i want to i'll

1414
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:53,760
say it there are a lot of white-haired

1415
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,800
old men

1416
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:56,480
who are in this patriarchal system

1417
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:58,319
because that goes with this too

1418
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,200
and they are sun setting and good people

1419
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:03,359
are coming in with a much broader

1420
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:05,520
perspective that are true scientists

1421
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:07,760
that were willing to listen

1422
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:10,240
to the research i've done and others

1423
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,119
there are others doing similar research

1424
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:14,880
and and i'm hopeful

1425
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:16,319
that that we're going to get changes

1426
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,920
it'll be pockets

1427
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,280
first like anything else that will

1428
00:54:23,190 --> 00:54:21,599
happen in some areas and

1429
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,200
and the rest of the

1430
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:25,599
country medical system will follow

1431
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,200
for the religious piece i also

1432
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,839
will concur with you i have a great deal

1433
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:33,520
of disappointment

1434
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:35,599
that spiritual care

1435
00:54:40,069 --> 00:54:37,680
and chaplaincy

1436
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:40,079
is reticent to

1437
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:42,000
take up the shared death experience and

1438
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:45,040
other end of life phenomena in any

1439
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,520
rigorous systemic way another way in

1440
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:49,839
other words to really

1441
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:52,880
pursue the education and the research

1442
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:55,440
that would

1443
00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:58,000
demand that they change their end of

1444
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,240
life spiritual care protocols and

1445
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:02,640
methods i think there's a there's kind

1446
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:06,079
of a a comfortableness and all spiritual

1447
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:07,520
care and i when i say spiritual care

1448
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,160
that includes chaplaincy and um all the

1449
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:12,240
type of care you get for spiritual life

1450
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:12,960
in

1451
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:20,960
for that matter

1452
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:23,200
and there's an openness amongst a lot of

1453
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:26,400
spiritual care providers for sure

1454
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:28,559
but there's not the willingness that

1455
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,559
i've seen yet to really explore what

1456
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:32,240
these phenomena are

1457
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,680
and to

1458
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:35,599
bring it into the canon

1459
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:38,319
of understanding of end of life

1460
00:55:42,390 --> 00:55:40,559
and what is being

1461
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:42,400
experienced by the dying in their

1462
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:43,680
caregivers

1463
00:55:47,030 --> 00:55:45,200
and if we know that shared death

1464
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:47,040
experiences are happening

1465
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:49,680
what does that mean for our care like

1466
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:50,400
how

1467
00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:51,520
first of all

1468
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,680
should we have education for anybody who

1469
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:55,839
comes into hospice and says hey just so

1470
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:56,799
you know

1471
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,280
these experiences happen and here's a

1472
00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:01,280
series of end of end of life phenomena

1473
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:02,880
you may see we call all them shared

1474
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:06,000
crossings so here's end of life

1475
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,400
visions and visitations here's terminal

1476
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:10,640
lucidity here's the shared death

1477
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,440
experience here's various forms of after

1478
00:56:18,549 --> 00:56:15,119
death communication that when you're

1479
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:18,559
done with the dying you may be visited

1480
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:20,240
by him or her

1481
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:22,559
and welcome it because everything we

1482
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:25,200
know suggests that these are

1483
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:26,480
missions

1484
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:30,880
that they're alive and well

1485
00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:34,000
and thank you for having

1486
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:34,799
you know

1487
00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:38,240
shared in their life just ended with

1488
00:56:42,069 --> 00:56:39,599
them you know so

1489
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:42,079
all of this in my

1490
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:45,119
in my you know estimation humbly

1491
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:47,280
although not stating it that humbly

1492
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:48,960
should be

1493
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:49,839
like

1494
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:53,200
end of life human preparation

1495
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:54,559
101

1496
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:56,400
for death dying and end of life it

1497
00:57:02,470 --> 00:56:59,359
should just be standard and yet

1498
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,480
the the two institutions responsible for

1499
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:04,799
that act of death and dying and end of

1500
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,920
life

1501
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:07,520
medical sciences

1502
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:10,319
and spiritual care or religious care

1503
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:12,880
are both at this point

1504
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:16,559
institutionally hesitant to embrace

1505
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,440
this full continuum of spiritual

1506
00:57:22,549 --> 00:57:21,119
experiences we call them shared

1507
00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:22,559
crossings they go by end of life

1508
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:24,559
phenomena whatever

1509
00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:28,079
they're they're not being fully embraced

1510
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:29,760
and brought into the candidate of

1511
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:32,720
understanding and care at the end of

1512
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:37,040
life and this is what i would call a gap

1513
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:41,680
in care a huge gap in care that harms

1514
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,559
not just the dying but also the

1515
00:57:49,109 --> 00:57:46,960
caregivers and loved ones who feel like

1516
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:49,119
when they have these experiences they

1517
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:51,599
doubt themselves they wonder if they're

1518
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:53,599
having some sort of

1519
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:56,160
psychotic moment when in fact they're

1520
00:58:01,990 --> 00:57:59,280
getting a tremendous spiritual gift that

1521
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:02,000
can transform their relationship not

1522
00:58:06,470 --> 00:58:04,640
just to the dying or to the deceased but

1523
00:58:08,549 --> 00:58:06,480
to themselves into their very

1524
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:08,559
understanding of who they are as a human

1525
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:12,160
being and what their essence is

1526
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:13,839
as a

1527
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:14,799
uh

1528
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:17,760
dare say immortal human being and mortal

1529
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:19,040
being

1530
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:20,960
so i've said a lot there but you get the

1531
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:22,640
point i do

1532
00:58:27,670 --> 00:58:25,680
and you said it quite well so

1533
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,680
i want to pick up and thread back into a

1534
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:29,440
couple things that you said

1535
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:30,880
in particular i want to talk about

1536
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:32,319
consciousness

1537
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:35,119
and what i sometimes call extended

1538
00:58:39,829 --> 00:58:36,720
consciousness because

1539
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:39,839
you're not only an expert in this sheer

1540
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:43,200
death experience but as you talked about

1541
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:45,200
you're you're an expert in a bunch of

1542
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:47,200
this other stuff that's in this realm so

1543
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:49,359
near-death experience you've not only

1544
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:52,000
had two near-death experiences but

1545
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:53,280
you've studied the literature

1546
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:55,359
extensively you've interviewed people

1547
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:57,839
like evan alexander and your colleagues

1548
00:59:01,589 --> 00:58:59,359
with him and raymond moody and all these

1549
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,599
people you're in that community you're

1550
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:03,680
well versed and professionally trained

1551
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:05,920
in past life regressions and past life

1552
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:08,400
regression hypnotherapy all that's a

1553
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:10,400
fascinating whole other aspect to that

1554
00:59:16,710 --> 00:59:12,640
but you're there you understand that out

1555
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:16,720
of body experiences again is different

1556
00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:19,520
you are an experiencer as well as being

1557
00:59:23,829 --> 00:59:21,920
well versed in that literature so i

1558
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:23,839
could go on and on you mentioned some

1559
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:25,040
other ones

1560
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:25,760
but

1561
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:27,680
my starting point on this is always to

1562
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:30,559
kind of step back really and again we've

1563
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:32,079
pounded on this a couple times we're

1564
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:34,640
going to pound it on it one more time

1565
00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:37,200
all these different

1566
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:40,160
bodies of evidence and the science that

1567
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:43,200
goes with them completely contradict

1568
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:44,319
this

1569
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:45,520
you are an

1570
00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:47,440
of the bro of the brain consciousness is

1571
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:48,880
a delusion

1572
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:52,079
this is just completely insane from a

1573
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:53,520
historical

1574
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:56,000
and uh cross-cultural perspective it's

1575
01:00:02,630 --> 00:59:56,880
just

1576
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:02,640
put a bow on that say okay that's done

1577
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:04,000
we're not even gonna

1578
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:05,440
worry about

1579
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:07,119
wrangling that which is just a

1580
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:09,280
distraction and kind of gets us think

1581
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:11,359
what you have done and what you offer us

1582
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:14,160
the opportunity to do with this book at

1583
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:17,119
heaven's door and with this amazing body

1584
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,119
of case studies that you've put together

1585
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:21,520
on chair death experiences you give us

1586
01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:23,520
the opportunity to kind of catapult past

1587
01:00:29,190 --> 01:00:25,920
a lot of that stuff and start asking

1588
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:29,200
some really interesting and very

1589
01:00:33,270 --> 01:00:32,000
challenging questions about extended

1590
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:33,280
consciousness

1591
01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:34,720
questions that

1592
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:37,760
you know as as wonderful as your

1593
01:00:43,030 --> 01:00:40,480
summation is and your

1594
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:43,040
call of hope to people in your very

1595
01:00:47,510 --> 01:00:46,079
positive message not taking a darn thing

1596
01:00:49,589 --> 01:00:47,520
away from that

1597
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:49,599
but there's some challenging aspects of

1598
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,400
this as well that i just have to throw

1599
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:53,680
on the tables

1600
01:00:56,710 --> 01:00:54,720
so

1601
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:56,720
tell us the story

1602
01:01:02,069 --> 01:00:58,720
about ron

1603
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:02,079
because this is a different kind of

1604
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:04,559
extended consciousness realm

1605
01:01:08,950 --> 01:01:06,559
that he winds up in

1606
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:08,960
and you wind up in and again

1607
01:01:15,910 --> 01:01:13,200
it's like you can't help but feel like

1608
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:15,920
the great conductor has set all this

1609
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,480
stuff up for you because the experience

1610
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:19,920
with ron

1611
01:01:25,349 --> 01:01:22,079
relates to your second near-death

1612
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:25,359
experience in a very very

1613
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:28,480
interesting way so can you fill people

1614
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:30,240
in on that whole thing

1615
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:32,799
yeah i think probably better here alex

1616
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:34,720
is to start with my second

1617
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:37,440
uh near-death experience because it lays

1618
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:40,319
the contextual understanding for the my

1619
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:41,280
my

1620
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:45,280
death experiences

1621
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:48,400
so i think i'm 30 years old

1622
01:01:52,710 --> 01:01:50,160
and i

1623
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:52,720
i contract a a rare blood disease uh

1624
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:55,119
idiopathic thrombocytopenia just means

1625
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,160
essentially that i'm i have a very low

1626
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:00,720
platelet count i'm at at risk for

1627
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:02,640
drowning in my blood

1628
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:03,359
so

1629
01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:06,880
i go into the er the emergency room in

1630
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:08,480
kaiser oakland

1631
01:02:11,990 --> 01:02:09,440
and

1632
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:12,000
next thing i realize

1633
01:02:17,109 --> 01:02:14,880
i am above

1634
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,119
i'm in a ceiling in a room that i

1635
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:19,520
realize is the icu

1636
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:20,880
it's really important the way i'm saying

1637
01:02:26,710 --> 01:02:23,920
this because i have no idea

1638
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:26,720
who i am anymore all i am is listening

1639
01:02:30,789 --> 01:02:28,400
to some nurses

1640
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:30,799
talk about the various four patients in

1641
01:02:36,069 --> 01:02:32,720
this icu

1642
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:36,079
and then they talk about this patient

1643
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:38,799
who's this young 30 year old man who's

1644
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:40,000
got no

1645
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:42,480
history of illness or any anything

1646
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:43,920
really

1647
01:02:47,349 --> 01:02:45,839
they can't understand why he's here

1648
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:47,359
what's happened why he has idiopathic

1649
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,079
thrombocytopenia

1650
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:52,240
and i go that's kind of interesting i'm

1651
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:54,000
looking at the other people in the beds

1652
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:55,760
kind of move my consciousness around

1653
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:58,240
there and i and i am saying i am a

1654
01:03:02,710 --> 01:02:59,520
consciousness

1655
01:03:05,910 --> 01:03:02,720
viewing this world without any sense of

1656
01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:05,920
identity there's no william here

1657
01:03:09,910 --> 01:03:08,559
but then i go over and see this

1658
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:09,920
who's in this bed that they're talking

1659
01:03:12,870 --> 01:03:11,440
about this 30 year old guy because i'm

1660
01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:12,880
curious

1661
01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:14,960
and as i look at the guy in the bed i

1662
01:03:21,029 --> 01:03:17,760
realized oh my god that's me

1663
01:03:22,789 --> 01:03:21,039
that's that's me what a wow and i have

1664
01:03:25,589 --> 01:03:22,799
this kind of like my my

1665
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:25,599
consciousness is trying to process this

1666
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:26,559
you know

1667
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:28,799
um but but i'm really

1668
01:03:32,069 --> 01:03:30,400
all of a sudden i'm doing something else

1669
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:32,079
like i see that

1670
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:34,160
i don't go back into my body i move back

1671
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:36,559
down the hall i'm watching the janitors

1672
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:38,480
uh do their midnight work because this

1673
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:41,200
is like two or four in the morning

1674
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:42,720
and

1675
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:50,400
question

1676
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:53,200
well what if i answer

1677
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:54,960
him

1678
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,960
what will that mean i debate about this

1679
01:04:00,630 --> 01:03:58,240
for a little bit and i eventually do

1680
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:00,640
answer him and as i answer him i kind of

1681
01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:02,960
fill in my body

1682
01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:05,200
uh as if like you know

1683
01:04:08,230 --> 01:04:06,880
energetically it's like shower when

1684
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:08,240
you're in a warm shower you feel the

1685
01:04:11,589 --> 01:04:10,640
warm energy kind of spread out across

1686
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:11,599
your

1687
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:17,280
but what i really noticed is as i

1688
01:04:23,349 --> 01:04:20,160
started talking and i opened my eyes i

1689
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:23,359
was now looking at him through my body

1690
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:25,440
when uh previously i was looking at the

1691
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:26,880
top of his head

1692
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:28,319
uh so

1693
01:04:32,789 --> 01:04:30,079
very profound experience

1694
01:04:34,710 --> 01:04:32,799
from that it was very clear to me that i

1695
01:04:37,270 --> 01:04:34,720
was not at that point i realized

1696
01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:37,280
whatever i identify as myself

1697
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:40,400
was not the physical body period

1698
01:04:44,390 --> 01:04:42,079
right so just

1699
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:44,400
let me uh just add a couple tiny points

1700
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:45,760
here because i want you to get to the

1701
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:48,480
next story which is a profound in a

1702
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:51,119
deeper way and in a spiritual way but

1703
01:04:55,430 --> 01:04:53,520
this is also kind of separate from

1704
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:55,440
spirituality as if anything can be

1705
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:58,799
separate from spirituality it can't but

1706
01:05:03,029 --> 01:05:01,039
you know now you're talking in terms

1707
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:03,039
that someone who is an out-of-body

1708
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:04,559
experiencer

1709
01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:07,200
would relate to very well you know all

1710
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:09,680
the things that you're talking about and

1711
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:11,839
maybe less so from a near-death

1712
01:05:16,710 --> 01:05:14,640
experience and you could fit it in that

1713
01:05:19,190 --> 01:05:16,720
peg over there but

1714
01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:19,200
then again you know maybe not and that's

1715
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:20,880
what's interesting right because it

1716
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:22,640
raises this question

1717
01:05:28,549 --> 01:05:25,599
why do you lack an identity in this one

1718
01:05:30,789 --> 01:05:28,559
and not in this one why do you have this

1719
01:05:32,630 --> 01:05:30,799
ability to kind of bounce around and

1720
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:32,640
hear stuff but

1721
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:35,200
one you know how could that even be how

1722
01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:37,119
does that even make any sense but then

1723
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:39,359
number two how does that relate to the

1724
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:42,000
fact that you're not connected in a

1725
01:05:46,630 --> 01:05:44,240
really profound way spiritually to all

1726
01:05:48,630 --> 01:05:46,640
the other stuff we hear about so

1727
01:05:51,910 --> 01:05:48,640
and then as you'll tee up in the story

1728
01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:51,920
with ron is what does this say about

1729
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:54,319
space what does it say about time and

1730
01:05:57,349 --> 01:05:56,079
then the part that you added that i

1731
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:57,359
thought was really quite brilliant i

1732
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:58,960
never thought about before what does

1733
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:00,799
this say about this idea that we

1734
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:03,599
commonly refer to as a parallel universe

1735
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:05,920
because you're kind of in two places

1736
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:07,680
at the same time more so in the second

1737
01:06:12,230 --> 01:06:10,079
story in this first but i think it's

1738
01:06:13,750 --> 01:06:12,240
the seeds are there so do you want to

1739
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:13,760
tell the story about ron

1740
01:06:18,630 --> 01:06:16,319
yeah so you know

1741
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:18,640
this experience with ron took place at

1742
01:06:23,670 --> 01:06:21,520
the zen hospice project where i was a

1743
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:23,680
volunteer hospice worker for a number of

1744
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:24,559
years

1745
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:26,400
and i had been

1746
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:29,680
visiting with ron on a regular basis

1747
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:33,520
and he had been in a s we call um

1748
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:35,920
unresponsive state for

1749
01:06:39,430 --> 01:06:37,760
i think a few weeks

1750
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:39,440
so but i was reading to him and we know

1751
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:42,000
as hospice workers that the last sense

1752
01:06:47,910 --> 01:06:44,720
to go before you die is hearing so we

1753
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,920
often read to or talk too lovingly to

1754
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,200
our patients

1755
01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:51,119
in this case i had been reading

1756
01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:53,440
ron's what was kind of he loved

1757
01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:55,119
adventure stories he'd been a merchant

1758
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:56,079
marine

1759
01:07:00,950 --> 01:06:57,920
and so i'm reading to him the call jack

1760
01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:00,960
london's call the wild and as i'm

1761
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:03,039
reading it to him

1762
01:07:16,150 --> 01:07:04,960
i

1763
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:16,160
speak

1764
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:18,160
and there's ron still in his bed you

1765
01:07:22,390 --> 01:07:20,400
know unresponsive prone

1766
01:07:24,309 --> 01:07:22,400
but to my right side

1767
01:07:25,430 --> 01:07:24,319
is ron

1768
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:25,440
ron

1769
01:07:31,029 --> 01:07:28,559
is there with a big smiling face eyes

1770
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:31,039
these white eyes was looking and glaring

1771
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:33,839
at me he is so happy he's smiling his

1772
01:07:37,589 --> 01:07:36,000
teeth is right he's a radiant being and

1773
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:37,599
he's looking at me as if to say check

1774
01:07:45,270 --> 01:07:40,960
this out so to say look where i have

1775
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:45,280
been and and he's i get the sense

1776
01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:48,000
that he's invited me here

1777
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:49,680
and and i'm just

1778
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:51,839
with him i'm a little stunned

1779
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:53,440
but appreciative

1780
01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:55,440
and sharing this moment with him i can't

1781
01:07:58,870 --> 01:07:57,280
tell you how long i was there i don't

1782
01:08:00,470 --> 01:07:58,880
think it was that long because we didn't

1783
01:08:02,309 --> 01:08:00,480
really have any more

1784
01:08:04,470 --> 01:08:02,319
significant

1785
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:04,480
you know communication if you will but

1786
01:08:08,230 --> 01:08:07,200
sometime later i'm back in my body

1787
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:08,240
reading

1788
01:08:14,710 --> 01:08:09,440
and

1789
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:14,720
i got to talk to my supervisor about

1790
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:17,839
this because i love my supervisor um you

1791
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,159
know his name was eric poche he was a

1792
01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:22,799
veteran of the aids epidemic previously

1793
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:24,640
so i've been doing hospice work for you

1794
01:08:31,990 --> 01:08:27,120
know two or three decades uh two decades

1795
01:08:36,630 --> 01:08:33,269
i shared it with

1796
01:08:39,189 --> 01:08:36,640
uh eric and he said to me

1797
01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:39,199
oh william you know this is the 24 bed

1798
01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:41,759
open hospice i should say so old

1799
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:42,880
hospital

1800
01:08:46,709 --> 01:08:45,040
you know indigen indigent people of san

1801
01:08:48,870 --> 01:08:46,719
francisco

1802
01:08:50,789 --> 01:08:48,880
and so a lot of death happening and as

1803
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:50,799
it's a long hallway and as i'm walking

1804
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:53,839
with him i i share this experience and

1805
01:08:57,189 --> 01:08:55,920
he doesn't even stop walking he goes

1806
01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:57,199
william

1807
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:58,319
um

1808
01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:01,359
phenomenal rolling by just let it go you

1809
01:09:05,269 --> 01:09:03,759
know mary needs you in bed four and i'm

1810
01:09:08,070 --> 01:09:05,279
like oh

1811
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:08,080
okay well this is indicative of a lot of

1812
01:09:13,669 --> 01:09:10,960
things here alex one is here's a here's

1813
01:09:15,990 --> 01:09:13,679
a wonderful man everybody loves eric

1814
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:16,000
super knowledgeable wise buddhist been

1815
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:17,359
through it all

1816
01:09:19,669 --> 01:09:18,319
and

1817
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:19,679
he

1818
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:22,239
kind of dismisses my experience so i

1819
01:09:25,990 --> 01:09:23,839
would have a lot more of these

1820
01:09:27,510 --> 01:09:26,000
experiences you know different types of

1821
01:09:29,749 --> 01:09:27,520
shared death experiences while at

1822
01:09:32,550 --> 01:09:29,759
hospice there

1823
01:09:37,269 --> 01:09:32,560
i never mentioned boo about any of this

1824
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,279
to anybody i got loud and clear

1825
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:39,120
this is not something you talk about

1826
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:39,920
it's

1827
01:09:43,990 --> 01:09:42,000
whatever but here i am secretly

1828
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:44,000
fascinated by these experiences you know

1829
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:45,199
and and

1830
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,359
i mean i i would they were

1831
01:09:51,430 --> 01:09:49,440
to be clear i would have a lot of

1832
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:51,440
experiences that were more about what we

1833
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:53,359
call changing the geometry of the room

1834
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:55,199
changing the time space continuum so

1835
01:09:57,990 --> 01:09:56,320
there's something about that death

1836
01:10:00,950 --> 01:09:58,000
vortex opening up

1837
01:10:03,350 --> 01:10:00,960
and you know feeling the buzz in my in

1838
01:10:06,070 --> 01:10:03,360
my ears and the

1839
01:10:08,630 --> 01:10:06,080
light changing and the hard angles of

1840
01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:08,640
the room the right angles getting softer

1841
01:10:13,669 --> 01:10:11,520
and then the feeling the pressure on my

1842
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,679
chest the rising up

1843
01:10:18,229 --> 01:10:15,360
and then all of a sudden i'm in a

1844
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:18,239
different space that's you know

1845
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:18,960
but

1846
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:20,400
would you call that an out-of-body

1847
01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:21,920
experience we'd have to i'd have to go

1848
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:23,040
through a variety of them to go into

1849
01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:24,800
them and i do not go into them in the

1850
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:25,679
book

1851
01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:27,280
because they're too detailed but the

1852
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:29,760
point being here is there's many points

1853
01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:31,199
here one is

1854
01:10:35,030 --> 01:10:33,440
that experience i have with ron which

1855
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,040
happened

1856
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:37,520
about 10 years after my

1857
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:42,080
second near-death experience in the icu

1858
01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:46,000
that space i was in in the zen hospice

1859
01:10:50,229 --> 01:10:47,120
project

1860
01:10:53,110 --> 01:10:50,239
was very similar it was the same

1861
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:53,120
location just up high just below the

1862
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:56,480
ceiling so you know as a researcher and

1863
01:11:01,910 --> 01:10:59,040
experiencer i know the different

1864
01:11:03,270 --> 01:11:01,920
dimensions i'm still in this human realm

1865
01:11:05,110 --> 01:11:03,280
in a certain way just at the kind of

1866
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:05,120
outer edges of it because i know if i go

1867
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,719
a little further

1868
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:07,920
well

1869
01:11:11,110 --> 01:11:09,760
everything changes we're no longer in a

1870
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:11,120
physical dimension

1871
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:13,920
and i can look down and see it but where

1872
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:16,640
i am is not in it so that's a

1873
01:11:22,709 --> 01:11:19,199
conversation for another day but but

1874
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:22,719
this really affirmed once again

1875
01:11:27,990 --> 01:11:26,800
wait a minute i have an existence as an

1876
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:28,000
as a

1877
01:11:31,830 --> 01:11:30,480
self of some type which i'll just call

1878
01:11:34,390 --> 01:11:31,840
consciousness

1879
01:11:36,229 --> 01:11:34,400
that survives a human body that is not

1880
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:36,239
dependent upon a human body and

1881
01:11:40,950 --> 01:11:38,080
certainly not a brain

1882
01:11:43,189 --> 01:11:40,960
and the other piece about this is in

1883
01:11:46,310 --> 01:11:43,199
this situation with ron

1884
01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:46,320
i did maintain a sense

1885
01:11:50,229 --> 01:11:48,320
of connection

1886
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:50,239
to you know william reading that book

1887
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,120
down there but i think that's because

1888
01:11:57,189 --> 01:11:55,679
there wasn't any trauma involved

1889
01:11:59,510 --> 01:11:57,199
i mean i was just popped out i don't

1890
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:59,520
know that happens but with the with the

1891
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:01,280
blood imbalance

1892
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:03,199
i was unconscious for

1893
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:05,280
i was in a darker space i do remember

1894
01:12:11,110 --> 01:12:08,560
just nothingness for a while before

1895
01:12:12,790 --> 01:12:11,120
i came to in the ceiling of my bed and i

1896
01:12:14,630 --> 01:12:12,800
don't know why that excuse me in the

1897
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:14,640
ceiling of the icu

1898
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:16,320
i can't explain all that i mean i

1899
01:12:19,750 --> 01:12:17,920
probably could if you if you were to ask

1900
01:12:20,470 --> 01:12:19,760
me deep questions

1901
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:20,480
but

1902
01:12:23,669 --> 01:12:21,360
there's

1903
01:12:25,750 --> 01:12:23,679
they're both the same in the out of body

1904
01:12:27,430 --> 01:12:25,760
feature and a separate consciousness

1905
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:27,440
from the physical

1906
01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:28,880
body brain

1907
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:32,080
but they're a bit different in my sense

1908
01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:35,760
of identity with william the human being

1909
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:37,520
said i think that's

1910
01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:39,120
super interesting

1911
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:40,480
and i think we need to kind of try and

1912
01:12:45,350 --> 01:12:42,800
parse it out a little bit if i can ask

1913
01:12:47,510 --> 01:12:45,360
you to do that because we do have this

1914
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:47,520
connection to like you mentioned

1915
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:50,159
shamanic traditions and other wisdom

1916
01:12:52,950 --> 01:12:51,280
traditions

1917
01:12:54,630 --> 01:12:52,960
and then we have all sorts of other

1918
01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:54,640
stuff that we don't even have to get

1919
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:56,880
into here but are talking about these

1920
01:12:59,910 --> 01:12:57,760
other

1921
01:13:01,510 --> 01:12:59,920
extended consciousness realms and they

1922
01:13:04,229 --> 01:13:01,520
talk about them in the way that you just

1923
01:13:06,550 --> 01:13:04,239
did of oh this one's close this one's

1924
01:13:08,550 --> 01:13:06,560
far away this one's above this one's

1925
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:08,560
below and then

1926
01:13:12,709 --> 01:13:10,719
that's kind of from a non-spiritual

1927
01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:12,719
perspective and then when we get into

1928
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:14,800
the spiritual perspective

1929
01:13:19,030 --> 01:13:17,440
things shift a little bit and we're

1930
01:13:21,110 --> 01:13:19,040
confronted with the really really big

1931
01:13:23,430 --> 01:13:21,120
questions which the biggest to me always

1932
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:23,440
is the hierarchy of consciousness you

1933
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:24,400
know

1934
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:26,480
you're already referring to it in a way

1935
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:28,080
even though you don't use that exact

1936
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:30,960
language but the conductor is at a

1937
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:33,520
higher if you will level

1938
01:13:38,630 --> 01:13:36,239
than some of these other folks and what

1939
01:13:40,790 --> 01:13:38,640
does that say it implies god it for lack

1940
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:40,800
of a better term but we're kind of

1941
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:43,679
uncomfortable with that but even

1942
01:13:47,590 --> 01:13:45,600
i want to pull that back and saying

1943
01:13:49,270 --> 01:13:47,600
we're uncomfortable with that forget

1944
01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:49,280
being uncomfortable or comfortable with

1945
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,080
it just from a phenomenological kind of

1946
01:13:56,630 --> 01:13:54,960
perspective we have this one experience

1947
01:14:00,470 --> 01:13:56,640
that doesn't seem to have any of that

1948
01:14:02,870 --> 01:14:00,480
but completely defies time space and

1949
01:14:04,790 --> 01:14:02,880
sequence you know this is parallelism

1950
01:14:07,270 --> 01:14:04,800
um and then we have this other

1951
01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:07,280
experience that seems to be all about

1952
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:08,480
this

1953
01:14:14,229 --> 01:14:10,400
big vertical leap that you're going to

1954
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:14,239
make in terms of spirituality

1955
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:18,000
you know this is terrain we do have to

1956
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:20,640
it does it do we have to dig it dig into

1957
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:22,400
this does this

1958
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:25,280
because you face such an enormous

1959
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:27,360
challenge that you've laid out which is

1960
01:14:31,110 --> 01:14:28,880
just you know you got oh you've got your

1961
01:14:33,990 --> 01:14:31,120
plate just with hospice you know what i

1962
01:14:35,030 --> 01:14:34,000
mean that's on your plate right now help

1963
01:14:38,870 --> 01:14:35,040
people

1964
01:14:40,830 --> 01:14:38,880
but the the big meal is still out there

1965
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:40,840
as well is what does all this stuff

1966
01:14:45,350 --> 01:14:43,520
mean well you're

1967
01:14:47,030 --> 01:14:45,360
you just touched on

1968
01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:47,040
the challenge that i

1969
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,280
face pretty much every day and that is

1970
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:51,360
you know what is the significance of the

1971
01:14:55,430 --> 01:14:53,280
shared death experience in terms of you

1972
01:14:59,430 --> 01:14:55,440
know the the research and the meaning

1973
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:59,440
around it what what is the sequentially

1974
01:15:02,790 --> 01:15:01,040
in my mind

1975
01:15:05,669 --> 01:15:02,800
who are the people who are asking to

1976
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:05,679
look at this and transform or

1977
01:15:10,149 --> 01:15:07,760
incorporate this wisdom and knowledge in

1978
01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:10,159
some ways like you you've identified

1979
01:15:12,830 --> 01:15:11,840
alex the various

1980
01:15:15,510 --> 01:15:12,840
if you will

1981
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:15,520
constituencies that that need to be they

1982
01:15:18,870 --> 01:15:17,040
need to take this up and we need to have

1983
01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:18,880
a conversation they need to address the

1984
01:15:24,310 --> 01:15:21,600
reality of these experiences

1985
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:24,320
or they need to steer everyone away from

1986
01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:26,640
addressing this as much as they possibly

1987
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:29,520
can because it doesn't really fit in

1988
01:15:32,709 --> 01:15:31,120
with

1989
01:15:34,709 --> 01:15:32,719
the way things either where they want to

1990
01:15:36,709 --> 01:15:34,719
take things or even on a simpler term

1991
01:15:38,630 --> 01:15:36,719
just upsetting the way things are right

1992
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:38,640
now so i mean that's just i want to

1993
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:41,679
throw my two cents in yeah i mean and in

1994
01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:43,600
a certain way i feel myself wanting to

1995
01:15:45,510 --> 01:15:44,320
be

1996
01:15:47,189 --> 01:15:45,520
well i can tell you where i go

1997
01:15:49,189 --> 01:15:47,199
organizationally because i run you know

1998
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,199
this organization where we can allocate

1999
01:15:54,709 --> 01:15:51,600
our resources and attention the truth of

2000
01:15:59,350 --> 01:15:56,790
when people who

2001
01:16:01,189 --> 01:15:59,360
um have levers of change and are willing

2002
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:01,199
to get the word out in a way that i

2003
01:16:09,510 --> 01:16:04,159
think like you can do it in a way that

2004
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:09,520
is um efficacious wise thoughtful

2005
01:16:13,910 --> 01:16:11,040
uh

2006
01:16:16,709 --> 01:16:13,920
and can influence people that's where we

2007
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:16,719
go do i know where the where this is the

2008
01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:18,560
change is going to happen i don't know

2009
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:20,719
where that hundredth monkey is

2010
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:23,040
it could be in medicine hey it could be

2011
01:16:25,189 --> 01:16:24,320
that you know

2012
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:25,199
the

2013
01:16:30,790 --> 01:16:29,040
tomorrow and says you know i want to say

2014
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:30,800
something my you know my granddaughter

2015
01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:33,520
gave me this at heaven's door for my

2016
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,600
birthday and i got to tell you i had one

2017
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:37,120
of these things

2018
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:39,360
okay well now we've got a game changer

2019
01:16:44,470 --> 01:16:41,520
and i'm willing to respond that or or a

2020
01:16:46,229 --> 01:16:44,480
big influencer you know um you know

2021
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:46,239
you're you're certainly

2022
01:16:50,550 --> 01:16:49,199
huge in your particular field of you

2023
01:16:52,709 --> 01:16:50,560
know what i would say consciously

2024
01:16:54,229 --> 01:16:52,719
oriented spiritual people who are

2025
01:16:56,310 --> 01:16:54,239
looking at

2026
01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:56,320
new models that are actually more

2027
01:17:03,030 --> 01:16:59,679
reflective of the way things are say

2028
01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:03,040
kind of simply um but you know it would

2029
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:04,880
be great if um

2030
01:17:10,149 --> 01:17:07,679
you know oprah winfrey you know said hey

2031
01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:10,159
by the way i heard about these and i had

2032
01:17:14,470 --> 01:17:12,239
this with my aunt whatever you know so

2033
01:17:16,229 --> 01:17:14,480
what i'm saying to you is i don't know

2034
01:17:18,149 --> 01:17:16,239
where the transformation is going to

2035
01:17:19,350 --> 01:17:18,159
take place i don't know what that lever

2036
01:17:22,229 --> 01:17:19,360
is going to be

2037
01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:22,239
i do feel very strongly alex that it's

2038
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:24,880
going to happen because you can't deny

2039
01:17:30,630 --> 01:17:27,440
this i mean what the the letters i have

2040
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:30,640
received emails from just the last month

2041
01:17:35,270 --> 01:17:32,880
of having this book out has been

2042
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:35,280
absolutely spectacular people from all

2043
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:37,120
walks of life saying

2044
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:39,840
i had this thank you i've never shared

2045
01:17:41,910 --> 01:17:40,560
it

2046
01:17:46,390 --> 01:17:41,920
and you know

2047
01:17:47,189 --> 01:17:46,400
so and and even medical doctors saying

2048
01:17:52,870 --> 01:17:47,199
i

2049
01:17:54,310 --> 01:17:52,880
all the day that that share these

2050
01:17:55,510 --> 01:17:54,320
experiences every you know all the time

2051
01:17:57,030 --> 01:17:55,520
but every now and then i hear these in

2052
01:17:59,189 --> 01:17:57,040
my medical practice and i don't know

2053
01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:59,199
what to say even though i've had it

2054
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:00,800
so i don't know where it's going to

2055
01:18:06,709 --> 01:18:03,600
happen but i i do feel it will and maybe

2056
01:18:09,110 --> 01:18:06,719
i'm just an optimist but well no you're

2057
01:18:11,669 --> 01:18:09,120
that's awesome i mean you are you are a

2058
01:18:13,830 --> 01:18:11,679
people helper you are in service you

2059
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:13,840
know and that's just such a beautiful

2060
01:18:17,990 --> 01:18:15,280
beautiful thing

2061
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:18,000
to see and to experience someone who's

2062
01:18:21,590 --> 01:18:19,920
doing that and has done that for so long

2063
01:18:23,590 --> 01:18:21,600
so i got it

2064
01:18:25,510 --> 01:18:23,600
you gotta do that

2065
01:18:27,270 --> 01:18:25,520
totally get that

2066
01:18:29,830 --> 01:18:27,280
i'm going to hit you with one other one

2067
01:18:32,390 --> 01:18:29,840
though that adds a little bit of color

2068
01:18:34,470 --> 01:18:32,400
and complexity to this which i really

2069
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:34,480
appreciate that you don't shy away from

2070
01:18:38,870 --> 01:18:36,719
that in any way i mean you deal with it

2071
01:18:40,470 --> 01:18:38,880
head on you just

2072
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:40,480
have a heart that says

2073
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:42,400
let me help the people

2074
01:18:48,550 --> 01:18:46,320
who i can help right now uh let me help

2075
01:18:50,229 --> 01:18:48,560
comfort them let me help because grief i

2076
01:18:52,790 --> 01:18:50,239
like that we haven't talked about grief

2077
01:18:56,229 --> 01:18:52,800
because grief is complicated and there's

2078
01:18:58,709 --> 01:18:56,239
another show can talk about all that but

2079
01:19:00,390 --> 01:18:58,719
you work with people who are

2080
01:19:02,310 --> 01:19:00,400
really really

2081
01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:02,320
crippled by grief and

2082
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:04,480
you're trying to help and all that so

2083
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:06,480
let's do this as we kind of head towards

2084
01:19:13,910 --> 01:19:10,000
wrapping this up back to the strangeness

2085
01:19:16,470 --> 01:19:13,920
can you tell us the story about gale

2086
01:19:17,669 --> 01:19:16,480
and the clink of the china

2087
01:19:20,070 --> 01:19:17,679
because

2088
01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:20,080
this is another one that

2089
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:22,080
you know again i just gotta pull back a

2090
01:19:25,910 --> 01:19:23,440
little bit because you get into the

2091
01:19:28,070 --> 01:19:25,920
shared death experience like oh wow this

2092
01:19:29,430 --> 01:19:28,080
is great this is great and then you but

2093
01:19:30,470 --> 01:19:29,440
you gotta check yourself over when it's

2094
01:19:31,669 --> 01:19:30,480
gonna go

2095
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:31,679
what

2096
01:19:40,870 --> 01:19:36,800
yes

2097
01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:40,880
so gail she's you know gail is the first

2098
01:19:44,630 --> 01:19:43,280
story we you know share in the book it's

2099
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:44,640
the first one that i

2100
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:46,159
really

2101
01:19:53,350 --> 01:19:51,199
uh want to want the audience to hear and

2102
01:19:54,149 --> 01:19:53,360
grapple with right away

2103
01:19:58,070 --> 01:19:54,159
so

2104
01:20:01,030 --> 01:19:58,080
gail is in the hospital with her father

2105
01:20:03,270 --> 01:20:01,040
and her father you know she doesn't know

2106
01:20:04,310 --> 01:20:03,280
where he is on the map of life doesn't

2107
01:20:05,990 --> 01:20:04,320
know if he's going to get out of the

2108
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:06,000
hospital doesn't know if

2109
01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:09,360
you know this is his moment so

2110
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:12,560
she's in the hospital bedroom with him

2111
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:15,679
and he starts coding so the medical

2112
01:20:20,629 --> 01:20:18,239
staff ushers her down to the waiting

2113
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,639
room and she's alone in the waiting room

2114
01:20:25,350 --> 01:20:23,040
and what she describes is

2115
01:20:28,229 --> 01:20:25,360
she finds herself

2116
01:20:31,750 --> 01:20:28,239
in a visionary realm

2117
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:31,760
walking down a beautiful path

2118
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:34,080
and she feels the presence of her father

2119
01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:35,440
with her

2120
01:20:40,310 --> 01:20:37,360
she doesn't say she actually sees him

2121
01:20:41,590 --> 01:20:40,320
but she knows that he she is with him

2122
01:20:44,310 --> 01:20:41,600
and they're walking down this beautiful

2123
01:20:48,229 --> 01:20:44,320
country road and then all of a sudden

2124
01:20:49,270 --> 01:20:48,239
she sees this little path go out to

2125
01:20:51,110 --> 01:20:49,280
this

2126
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:51,120
kind of other estate if you will a

2127
01:20:55,590 --> 01:20:52,880
state's probably too um too much

2128
01:20:58,629 --> 01:20:55,600
grandeur but there's a gate and there's

2129
01:21:01,510 --> 01:20:58,639
people behind that she hears talking

2130
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:01,520
and she hears

2131
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:03,520
voices

2132
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:06,480
of people either that she remembers from

2133
01:21:10,229 --> 01:21:09,199
her childhood who have predeceased

2134
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:10,239
uh

2135
01:21:15,830 --> 01:21:12,880
her and of course her father

2136
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:15,840
and what she hears is that these people

2137
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:18,239
referring to

2138
01:21:22,149 --> 01:21:19,280
walter

2139
01:21:24,229 --> 01:21:22,159
by his childhood name by his younger

2140
01:21:27,910 --> 01:21:24,239
name the name that was only used in the

2141
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:27,920
family when he was you know in his 20s

2142
01:21:31,030 --> 01:21:29,760
or something in childhood and 20s i

2143
01:21:32,470 --> 01:21:31,040
think it's like walter or something

2144
01:21:34,629 --> 01:21:32,480
because now as you grow up they call

2145
01:21:37,510 --> 01:21:34,639
them walt but she recognizes these

2146
01:21:39,910 --> 01:21:37,520
voices and she recognizes the names

2147
01:21:42,070 --> 01:21:39,920
being exchanged and she's thinking oh my

2148
01:21:44,310 --> 01:21:42,080
god there's my aunt my who died and

2149
01:21:46,390 --> 01:21:44,320
there's my grandmother who died she's

2150
01:21:48,629 --> 01:21:46,400
putting this together and then she hears

2151
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:48,639
the clinking of the china

2152
01:21:53,750 --> 01:21:52,320
and that and she realizes she at that

2153
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:53,760
moment she hears

2154
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:55,760
walter's coming walter's coming he's

2155
01:21:57,910 --> 01:21:56,639
coming

2156
01:22:00,629 --> 01:21:57,920
and now

2157
01:22:01,750 --> 01:22:00,639
we are getting this sense of what you

2158
01:22:05,830 --> 01:22:01,760
know

2159
01:22:09,430 --> 01:22:05,840
raymond talked about this too raymond

2160
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:09,440
moody this welcoming party well known in

2161
01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:11,760
the sh in the near death experience and

2162
01:22:16,229 --> 01:22:13,360
here we have it again in the shared

2163
01:22:17,590 --> 01:22:16,239
death experience they're preparing

2164
01:22:24,390 --> 01:22:17,600
a

2165
01:22:26,550 --> 01:22:24,400
home

2166
01:22:28,470 --> 01:22:26,560
and as she approaches the gate she

2167
01:22:30,070 --> 01:22:28,480
realizes

2168
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:30,080
this is

2169
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:34,320
a boundary upon which she cannot

2170
01:22:37,189 --> 01:22:35,520
pass

2171
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:37,199
this is the boundary in the spiritual

2172
01:22:40,470 --> 01:22:39,120
realm we know this well both in the nd

2173
01:22:41,910 --> 01:22:40,480
and the sde

2174
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:41,920
and then

2175
01:22:47,430 --> 01:22:44,800
it ends and she's back in

2176
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:47,440
the waiting room and the doctor comes

2177
01:22:55,270 --> 01:22:50,880
down the hall and says to her

2178
01:22:57,350 --> 01:22:55,280
i'm i'm sorry to tell you

2179
01:22:58,390 --> 01:22:57,360
and she interrupts him i believe and

2180
01:22:59,750 --> 01:22:58,400
says

2181
01:23:01,510 --> 01:22:59,760
i know

2182
01:23:04,310 --> 01:23:01,520
i was just with him

2183
01:23:07,510 --> 01:23:04,320
i know he's died and the doctor

2184
01:23:10,950 --> 01:23:07,520
steps back and rolls his eyes and walks

2185
01:23:13,189 --> 01:23:10,960
out without saying anything like like

2186
01:23:16,149 --> 01:23:13,199
you know anyway i i can go off on that

2187
01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:16,159
one but i'm like clinically

2188
01:23:20,390 --> 01:23:17,840
so there's two things here so you've got

2189
01:23:22,870 --> 01:23:20,400
gail with this spectacular welcoming

2190
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:22,880
party experience with her father

2191
01:23:27,910 --> 01:23:25,760
um into the next dimension you know into

2192
01:23:29,750 --> 01:23:27,920
the afterlife it's benevolent so for

2193
01:23:32,709 --> 01:23:29,760
gail what's so profound about this and

2194
01:23:35,669 --> 01:23:32,719
what we see for all of our i say almost

2195
01:23:36,790 --> 01:23:35,679
all of our experiencers is this sense

2196
01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:36,800
that her

2197
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:38,560
beloved father

2198
01:23:43,189 --> 01:23:41,520
is now alive and well in a in a

2199
01:23:45,350 --> 01:23:43,199
beautiful afterlife

2200
01:23:49,189 --> 01:23:45,360
being greeted by

2201
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:49,199
known family and relatives welcomed home

2202
01:23:52,790 --> 01:23:51,120
and so for

2203
01:23:55,910 --> 01:23:52,800
gail

2204
01:23:58,390 --> 01:23:55,920
and many other sd experiencers

2205
01:23:59,270 --> 01:23:58,400
she knows that

2206
01:24:01,030 --> 01:23:59,280
her

2207
01:24:04,229 --> 01:24:01,040
departed loved one

2208
01:24:05,910 --> 01:24:04,239
is in a great place and this radically

2209
01:24:07,510 --> 01:24:05,920
transforms

2210
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:07,520
her grief

2211
01:24:12,550 --> 01:24:09,520
like she's not wondering where her

2212
01:24:14,390 --> 01:24:12,560
father is she knows he's alive and well

2213
01:24:17,189 --> 01:24:14,400
she knows that she'll see him again she

2214
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:17,199
even says that and

2215
01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:20,960
uh and her fear of death is completely

2216
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:23,360
alleviated this is one of the great

2217
01:24:28,149 --> 01:24:25,679
hallmarks of these near death and shared

2218
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:28,159
experiences is that our relationship to

2219
01:24:34,310 --> 01:24:31,199
death and dying is wholly transformed

2220
01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:34,320
from one of fear and anxiety

2221
01:24:41,270 --> 01:24:38,480
to one of wonder and awe and receptivity

2222
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,280
to this great event this great adventure

2223
01:24:45,030 --> 01:24:43,120
that awaits us all

2224
01:24:46,709 --> 01:24:45,040
so and then the last piece i'll say

2225
01:24:48,550 --> 01:24:46,719
about this but i i don't want to end

2226
01:24:52,470 --> 01:24:48,560
here because it's not a positive piece

2227
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:52,480
but my my yearning my longing

2228
01:24:57,270 --> 01:24:54,960
for gail and anybody who has any of

2229
01:24:58,550 --> 01:24:57,280
these experiences in a hospital

2230
01:25:01,110 --> 01:24:58,560
is that

2231
01:25:03,030 --> 01:25:01,120
when a medical professional usually it's

2232
01:25:06,390 --> 01:25:03,040
a doctor who comes to the surviving

2233
01:25:08,550 --> 01:25:06,400
loved ones and announces a death says

2234
01:25:11,189 --> 01:25:08,560
hey i have some news for you i'm really

2235
01:25:12,790 --> 01:25:11,199
sorry to say to you and and then you

2236
01:25:14,550 --> 01:25:12,800
know at some point

2237
01:25:16,229 --> 01:25:14,560
gail has

2238
01:25:18,229 --> 01:25:16,239
the confidence now gail is a very

2239
01:25:20,470 --> 01:25:18,239
confident person so she told the doctor

2240
01:25:22,070 --> 01:25:20,480
right there boom this is what happened

2241
01:25:24,229 --> 01:25:22,080
but my hope is that that medical

2242
01:25:25,430 --> 01:25:24,239
professional will say

2243
01:25:28,149 --> 01:25:25,440
oh

2244
01:25:31,030 --> 01:25:28,159
gail that's wonderful

2245
01:25:33,110 --> 01:25:31,040
you had a shared death experience

2246
01:25:35,669 --> 01:25:33,120
tell me more

2247
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:35,679
i want to know more about this that is

2248
01:25:42,550 --> 01:25:38,000
such a gift this is known in the

2249
01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:42,560
research you are so blessed to have this

2250
01:25:47,350 --> 01:25:44,480
and if you i would love to hear more

2251
01:25:49,750 --> 01:25:47,360
right now if you feel comfortable i also

2252
01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:49,760
have someone on staff who knows all

2253
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:50,800
about this

2254
01:25:55,110 --> 01:25:53,040
we want to help you

2255
01:25:58,070 --> 01:25:55,120
make sense of this and we want to affirm

2256
01:26:01,590 --> 01:25:58,080
that what you had is a known experience

2257
01:26:04,149 --> 01:26:01,600
that is a gift that you can continue to

2258
01:26:05,510 --> 01:26:04,159
be with and it will our the research

2259
01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:05,520
suggests that

2260
01:26:09,590 --> 01:26:07,440
this is really beneficial for you and

2261
01:26:11,669 --> 01:26:09,600
your loved ones

2262
01:26:13,830 --> 01:26:11,679
that's what i hope for

2263
01:26:16,070 --> 01:26:13,840
yeah that's awesome it's a great story

2264
01:26:18,950 --> 01:26:16,080
and again you know william tells a great

2265
01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:18,960
story he also writes a great story this

2266
01:26:22,149 --> 01:26:20,480
book like i said it's kind of a page

2267
01:26:25,110 --> 01:26:22,159
turner you're going to want to hear

2268
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:25,120
story after story and i guess we should

2269
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:27,600
add you know and talk about

2270
01:26:31,590 --> 01:26:29,440
the shared crossing project in

2271
01:26:34,470 --> 01:26:31,600
sharedcrossing.com because the other

2272
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:34,480
thing that gail can do in this situation

2273
01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:36,960
is you're kind of filling the gap right

2274
01:26:40,110 --> 01:26:37,840
so

2275
01:26:42,310 --> 01:26:40,120
she could go to

2276
01:26:44,149 --> 01:26:42,320
sharedcrossing.com and she could find

2277
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:44,159
someone where she could

2278
01:26:49,350 --> 01:26:46,320
feel uh i'm sure she'd feel a real

2279
01:26:52,149 --> 01:26:49,360
welcoming about that experience and

2280
01:26:54,470 --> 01:26:52,159
that's an unbelievable gift

2281
01:26:56,550 --> 01:26:54,480
that this book brings

2282
01:26:57,830 --> 01:26:56,560
i haven't said that because we said that

2283
01:26:59,669 --> 01:26:57,840
over and over again

2284
01:27:01,270 --> 01:26:59,679
i do want to

2285
01:27:02,950 --> 01:27:01,280
take this story in a slightly different

2286
01:27:04,870 --> 01:27:02,960
direction as well

2287
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:04,880
because again i think this is to me this

2288
01:27:10,149 --> 01:27:07,199
is one of the barriers to really the

2289
01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:10,159
acceptance of this whole stuff all this

2290
01:27:15,910 --> 01:27:12,960
stuff and people like you and i in our

2291
01:27:18,149 --> 01:27:15,920
community we can have a tendency to not

2292
01:27:19,669 --> 01:27:18,159
fully appreciate what that paradigm

2293
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:19,679
change is like you know what because we

2294
01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:21,920
forget our own paradigm change

2295
01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:24,400
you were different you had it at 17

2296
01:27:27,350 --> 01:27:25,760
through a near-death experience but for

2297
01:27:29,750 --> 01:27:27,360
the rest of us who don't have those

2298
01:27:31,750 --> 01:27:29,760
experiences it's a lot of grinding on it

2299
01:27:34,229 --> 01:27:31,760
grinding on it i'm a smart person how

2300
01:27:36,229 --> 01:27:34,239
could i not know about this uh the world

2301
01:27:38,229 --> 01:27:36,239
works the way it works and i'm

2302
01:27:40,629 --> 01:27:38,239
comfortable with it how could everything

2303
01:27:41,750 --> 01:27:40,639
be upside down because that's what

2304
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:41,760
you're

2305
01:27:45,350 --> 01:27:43,679
really kind of

2306
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:45,360
demanding here

2307
01:27:51,910 --> 01:27:49,440
gail's story does not make any sense

2308
01:27:53,830 --> 01:27:51,920
from a consensus reality perspective it

2309
01:27:56,149 --> 01:27:53,840
just it doesn't and we can't pretend

2310
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:56,159
like it does or shoehorn it back in or

2311
01:28:00,070 --> 01:27:57,840
no it just

2312
01:28:02,709 --> 01:28:00,080
doesn't make any sense and what it

2313
01:28:03,750 --> 01:28:02,719
points to i think the really challenging

2314
01:28:05,270 --> 01:28:03,760
part

2315
01:28:07,430 --> 01:28:05,280
is that

2316
01:28:10,070 --> 01:28:07,440
maybe our barrier

2317
01:28:11,990 --> 01:28:10,080
to understanding gail's story

2318
01:28:13,430 --> 01:28:12,000
is understanding

2319
01:28:14,629 --> 01:28:13,440
just how

2320
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:14,639
clouded

2321
01:28:19,669 --> 01:28:17,280
our consensus reality perspective is

2322
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:19,679
because everybody you're talking to

2323
01:28:25,189 --> 01:28:22,080
william is coming back and going no you

2324
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:25,199
don't get it that's real

2325
01:28:30,470 --> 01:28:28,239
you're not real you're not experiencing

2326
01:28:34,070 --> 01:28:30,480
reality when i was there that was

2327
01:28:37,110 --> 01:28:34,080
reality this isn't reality

2328
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:37,120
that's a lot for us to kind of wrap our

2329
01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:39,840
head around and i'm sure you

2330
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:41,679
struggle with that i'm sure you probably

2331
01:28:45,110 --> 01:28:43,120
struggled or have struggled with it

2332
01:28:48,870 --> 01:28:45,120
yourself but i'm sure you also struggle

2333
01:28:51,669 --> 01:28:48,880
with it with the people you try to serve

2334
01:28:52,870 --> 01:28:51,679
yeah you've said that very well alex one

2335
01:28:53,990 --> 01:28:52,880
of the

2336
01:28:56,070 --> 01:28:54,000
frequent

2337
01:28:57,510 --> 01:28:56,080
comments we hear during our interviews

2338
01:29:00,629 --> 01:28:57,520
and of course you know i feel the same

2339
01:29:03,350 --> 01:29:00,639
way being an experiencer is that

2340
01:29:07,350 --> 01:29:03,360
that dimension that that we go to during

2341
01:29:11,030 --> 01:29:07,360
these experiences is more real than real

2342
01:29:14,390 --> 01:29:11,040
this that is the ultimate reality and

2343
01:29:18,550 --> 01:29:14,400
that this human experience is

2344
01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:18,560
the dream it's the delusion it's it's a

2345
01:29:23,350 --> 01:29:20,800
temporary

2346
01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:23,360
experience a realm that we go to to

2347
01:29:27,510 --> 01:29:25,840
learn and to have experiences and

2348
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:27,520
hopefully evolve our souls there's a

2349
01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:29,520
whole paradigm around this where you can

2350
01:29:32,950 --> 01:29:31,440
agree with or not and not all our

2351
01:29:36,310 --> 01:29:32,960
experiencers will

2352
01:29:38,229 --> 01:29:36,320
say what i said but they will when

2353
01:29:40,470 --> 01:29:38,239
when they've had a particular experience

2354
01:29:44,470 --> 01:29:40,480
assert that

2355
01:29:46,950 --> 01:29:44,480
the human experience is not

2356
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:46,960
the ultimate reality where

2357
01:29:52,149 --> 01:29:48,320
they went

2358
01:29:54,229 --> 01:29:52,159
during that often short period of time

2359
01:29:57,830 --> 01:29:54,239
is the ultimate reality and often we

2360
01:29:58,790 --> 01:29:57,840
hear the term that's our true home

2361
01:30:01,910 --> 01:29:58,800
that's

2362
01:30:04,790 --> 01:30:01,920
where we truly reside

2363
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:04,800
great a couple other things let's uh

2364
01:30:08,229 --> 01:30:07,280
just throw on the table if we can

2365
01:30:10,310 --> 01:30:08,239
uh

2366
01:30:12,070 --> 01:30:10,320
you've also

2367
01:30:13,910 --> 01:30:12,080
you know really understand the work of

2368
01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:13,920
gregory shishan and you've studied it

2369
01:30:18,310 --> 01:30:15,760
and have you collaborated with him at

2370
01:30:20,149 --> 01:30:18,320
all or talked to him at all i have not

2371
01:30:22,310 --> 01:30:20,159
yeah but i do see us we'll be speaking

2372
01:30:24,229 --> 01:30:22,320
at some conferences coming up i do hope

2373
01:30:26,629 --> 01:30:24,239
to to um

2374
01:30:28,390 --> 01:30:26,639
to meet him uh i have a just a

2375
01:30:30,790 --> 01:30:28,400
tremendous amount of respect for his

2376
01:30:33,189 --> 01:30:30,800
work it is so

2377
01:30:35,430 --> 01:30:33,199
i mean so challenging such a good way

2378
01:30:37,189 --> 01:30:35,440
really stretches us not just spiritually

2379
01:30:39,669 --> 01:30:37,199
but multiculturally

2380
01:30:42,229 --> 01:30:39,679
and i think that is what we

2381
01:30:43,669 --> 01:30:42,239
we need that in spades so i just yeah

2382
01:30:46,310 --> 01:30:43,679
i'm a huge

2383
01:30:48,070 --> 01:30:46,320
fan and admirer of his work

2384
01:30:49,990 --> 01:30:48,080
great and so am i for all the reasons

2385
01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:50,000
that you said because if we were going

2386
01:30:55,350 --> 01:30:52,320
to pull back a little bit and say let's

2387
01:30:57,669 --> 01:30:55,360
try and get a handle on this from

2388
01:30:59,110 --> 01:30:57,679
this reality then

2389
01:31:01,030 --> 01:30:59,120
we'd immediately want to go cross

2390
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:01,040
culture and cross time to kind of wipe

2391
01:31:05,510 --> 01:31:03,760
out flush out any of those factors that

2392
01:31:07,990 --> 01:31:05,520
are playing in and that's exactly what

2393
01:31:09,590 --> 01:31:08,000
shushan has done right he said

2394
01:31:11,669 --> 01:31:09,600
from kind of an anthropological

2395
01:31:13,910 --> 01:31:11,679
standpoint let's look at near-death

2396
01:31:15,990 --> 01:31:13,920
experiences across all these cultures

2397
01:31:19,510 --> 01:31:16,000
and let's go back in time as far as we

2398
01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:19,520
can with these accounts and

2399
01:31:24,629 --> 01:31:21,840
it's amazing what he finds

2400
01:31:26,870 --> 01:31:24,639
he's kind of reticent to go too far

2401
01:31:29,750 --> 01:31:26,880
because he's really even more locked

2402
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:29,760
into a system that doesn't allow any

2403
01:31:32,390 --> 01:31:30,880
other stuff

2404
01:31:34,709 --> 01:31:32,400
but it also kind of throws a monkey

2405
01:31:36,709 --> 01:31:34,719
wrench on into some of this stuff that

2406
01:31:39,270 --> 01:31:36,719
we're talking about because it all

2407
01:31:42,470 --> 01:31:39,280
doesn't break as cleanly as we'd want it

2408
01:31:45,189 --> 01:31:42,480
to in terms of a nice neat story of all

2409
01:31:45,990 --> 01:31:45,199
goodness and wonderful and all this i

2410
01:31:48,709 --> 01:31:46,000
mean

2411
01:31:51,750 --> 01:31:48,719
you got shamans journeying to

2412
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:51,760
some dark places as well you know and if

2413
01:31:54,470 --> 01:31:53,360
we look at the near death experience

2414
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:54,480
literature

2415
01:31:58,950 --> 01:31:56,880
we have the traumatic and the

2416
01:32:00,709 --> 01:31:58,960
distressing what we call near-death

2417
01:32:02,870 --> 01:32:00,719
experiences we know they're

2418
01:32:05,350 --> 01:32:02,880
under-reported by researchers and

2419
01:32:07,110 --> 01:32:05,360
because they're under-reported by

2420
01:32:09,350 --> 01:32:07,120
experiencers you don't want to come out

2421
01:32:10,470 --> 01:32:09,360
and say i went to hell the first

2422
01:32:13,270 --> 01:32:10,480
question is

2423
01:32:15,430 --> 01:32:13,280
what did you do what did you do before

2424
01:32:17,430 --> 01:32:15,440
that you know kind of thing but there's

2425
01:32:20,229 --> 01:32:17,440
there's all sorts of

2426
01:32:22,870 --> 01:32:20,239
aspects to this that

2427
01:32:24,870 --> 01:32:22,880
we're not really sure we even want to

2428
01:32:26,229 --> 01:32:24,880
explore what are some of your thoughts

2429
01:32:29,030 --> 01:32:26,239
about that because i've heard you say

2430
01:32:30,149 --> 01:32:29,040
you didn't directly come across that in

2431
01:32:31,990 --> 01:32:30,159
your work

2432
01:32:33,510 --> 01:32:32,000
but you got to know that it's out there

2433
01:32:36,629 --> 01:32:33,520
in some way that

2434
01:32:38,950 --> 01:32:36,639
we don't totally understand

2435
01:32:41,270 --> 01:32:38,960
well the the not totally understand i

2436
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:41,280
can say that for sure the whole thing i

2437
01:32:44,629 --> 01:32:43,040
mean i may sound like i'm you know

2438
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:44,639
knowledgeable and

2439
01:32:48,550 --> 01:32:46,800
sure about uh the shared death

2440
01:32:50,870 --> 01:32:48,560
experience and these phenomenons and i

2441
01:32:52,390 --> 01:32:50,880
am you know qualitatively this i can say

2442
01:32:54,470 --> 01:32:52,400
this is what we've seen there's a great

2443
01:32:56,310 --> 01:32:54,480
pattern here and

2444
01:32:58,149 --> 01:32:56,320
i can see it replicated over and over

2445
01:33:00,550 --> 01:32:58,159
again in not just my clinical work but

2446
01:33:01,830 --> 01:33:00,560
also in the research so

2447
01:33:04,629 --> 01:33:01,840
but you're talking about these

2448
01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:04,639
distressing realms that are reported by

2449
01:33:08,390 --> 01:33:06,880
nancy bush for one in the nde community

2450
01:33:11,590 --> 01:33:08,400
i mean evan alexander

2451
01:33:14,070 --> 01:33:11,600
starts out with this earthworm eye view

2452
01:33:15,669 --> 01:33:14,080
which is kind of a dark dense realm in

2453
01:33:16,870 --> 01:33:15,679
his early stage of his near-death

2454
01:33:18,950 --> 01:33:16,880
experience

2455
01:33:21,669 --> 01:33:18,960
i would just interject that then if we

2456
01:33:23,669 --> 01:33:21,679
go cross-culturally from

2457
01:33:25,669 --> 01:33:23,679
shamanistic standpoint

2458
01:33:27,830 --> 01:33:25,679
all over the place right so it's kind of

2459
01:33:29,669 --> 01:33:27,840
confirming of those

2460
01:33:30,629 --> 01:33:29,679
other realms whatever we are to make of

2461
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:30,639
them yeah

2462
01:33:35,270 --> 01:33:32,639
yeah and so yeah if you want to take the

2463
01:33:37,350 --> 01:33:35,280
you know the more pre-modern cultures if

2464
01:33:40,390 --> 01:33:37,360
we use it shamanistic and indigenous and

2465
01:33:43,350 --> 01:33:40,400
what have you they all have different

2466
01:33:44,950 --> 01:33:43,360
realms some of which we would call

2467
01:33:45,990 --> 01:33:44,960
distressing or

2468
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:46,000
you know

2469
01:33:49,590 --> 01:33:47,520
non-desirable i don't know if i call

2470
01:33:51,910 --> 01:33:49,600
them hell realms but there there's

2471
01:33:54,310 --> 01:33:51,920
certainly there is this is known in

2472
01:33:56,790 --> 01:33:54,320
shamanism that there are a variety of

2473
01:33:57,669 --> 01:33:56,800
realms to be visited that you can go to

2474
01:33:59,830 --> 01:33:57,679
and

2475
01:34:02,470 --> 01:33:59,840
a lot of it is i don't know if i'd say

2476
01:34:05,590 --> 01:34:02,480
merit-based because that's very kind of

2477
01:34:07,990 --> 01:34:05,600
judeo-christian if you will i do think i

2478
01:34:09,750 --> 01:34:08,000
do think there are ways in which you can

2479
01:34:12,629 --> 01:34:09,760
cultivate your consciousness and do

2480
01:34:14,709 --> 01:34:12,639
practices of which the these you know

2481
01:34:16,229 --> 01:34:14,719
indigenous shamanic communities our

2482
01:34:18,390 --> 01:34:16,239
cultures are

2483
01:34:21,189 --> 01:34:18,400
you know they're replete with they they

2484
01:34:23,830 --> 01:34:21,199
have a series of practices that prepare

2485
01:34:25,669 --> 01:34:23,840
the soul and spirit for these journeys

2486
01:34:27,990 --> 01:34:25,679
and to and to really go to certain

2487
01:34:29,910 --> 01:34:28,000
places based on what they've learned in

2488
01:34:31,830 --> 01:34:29,920
their tradition about how you access

2489
01:34:34,229 --> 01:34:31,840
different realms again if i can just

2490
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:34,239
interject because it and i'm sure you

2491
01:34:38,149 --> 01:34:36,960
will agree it it just is complicated and

2492
01:34:41,669 --> 01:34:38,159
the further you get into it it's

2493
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:41,679
complicated i interviewed a guy who was

2494
01:34:47,830 --> 01:34:45,840
a buddhist dream yoga

2495
01:34:50,229 --> 01:34:47,840
worked with a very accomplished teacher

2496
01:34:52,070 --> 01:34:50,239
and his teacher at some point said gee

2497
01:34:53,350 --> 01:34:52,080
kid you're doing great now what you're

2498
01:34:54,629 --> 01:34:53,360
going to do is you're going to visit the

2499
01:34:56,470 --> 01:34:54,639
hell realm

2500
01:35:01,030 --> 01:34:56,480
and that's what he was supposed to do in

2501
01:35:02,629 --> 01:35:01,040
his dream yoga and he did and so he was

2502
01:35:04,870 --> 01:35:02,639
he was a visitor

2503
01:35:07,430 --> 01:35:04,880
what does that mean do other people

2504
01:35:09,910 --> 01:35:07,440
choose to visit those realms we have

2505
01:35:12,950 --> 01:35:09,920
this whole magic tradition and other

2506
01:35:15,189 --> 01:35:12,960
traditions that tell us oh you can gain

2507
01:35:17,189 --> 01:35:15,199
things from that from those realms and

2508
01:35:19,109 --> 01:35:17,199
those a whole other conversation for a

2509
01:35:21,910 --> 01:35:19,119
whole other time but i just think if we

2510
01:35:23,910 --> 01:35:21,920
pull back the lens and we broaden this

2511
01:35:25,590 --> 01:35:23,920
the possibilities and start stringing

2512
01:35:27,189 --> 01:35:25,600
them together in a meaningful way and

2513
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:27,199
that's again when i say

2514
01:35:31,189 --> 01:35:29,280
you know you have to do the work that

2515
01:35:33,669 --> 01:35:31,199
you're doing it it's it's you just have

2516
01:35:36,149 --> 01:35:33,679
to and we have to change in the way that

2517
01:35:37,030 --> 01:35:36,159
we're changing but it opens up all these

2518
01:35:40,070 --> 01:35:37,040
other

2519
01:35:41,750 --> 01:35:40,080
vistas that we we got to be ready for

2520
01:35:43,910 --> 01:35:41,760
because

2521
01:35:44,709 --> 01:35:43,920
that's the next step in all this too you

2522
01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:44,719
know

2523
01:35:48,229 --> 01:35:45,840
yeah well and i think this

2524
01:35:49,270 --> 01:35:48,239
cross-cultural piece is really important

2525
01:35:51,350 --> 01:35:49,280
because

2526
01:35:52,950 --> 01:35:51,360
when the western paradigm that you've

2527
01:35:56,470 --> 01:35:52,960
referred to this kind of scientific

2528
01:35:58,629 --> 01:35:56,480
materialism when it if it truly

2529
01:35:59,910 --> 01:35:58,639
comes into relationship with pre-modern

2530
01:36:01,750 --> 01:35:59,920
paradigms

2531
01:36:04,070 --> 01:36:01,760
this is where

2532
01:36:06,950 --> 01:36:04,080
quite frankly

2533
01:36:09,109 --> 01:36:06,960
these pre-modern paradigms are far more

2534
01:36:11,189 --> 01:36:09,119
sustainable and believable

2535
01:36:13,350 --> 01:36:11,199
and reality based

2536
01:36:15,109 --> 01:36:13,360
than the narrow confines of scientific

2537
01:36:17,510 --> 01:36:15,119
materialism it just

2538
01:36:19,189 --> 01:36:17,520
ours works maybe in a test tube but it

2539
01:36:20,709 --> 01:36:19,199
certainly doesn't work when you test run

2540
01:36:22,550 --> 01:36:20,719
it in the real world

2541
01:36:24,950 --> 01:36:22,560
and i think that and that's something i

2542
01:36:26,470 --> 01:36:24,960
learned early in my life

2543
01:36:28,149 --> 01:36:26,480
from my time in central and south

2544
01:36:29,910 --> 01:36:28,159
america working with indigenous cultures

2545
01:36:32,229 --> 01:36:29,920
is just like well

2546
01:36:34,950 --> 01:36:32,239
this makes sense you don't have to leave

2547
01:36:36,310 --> 01:36:34,960
anything out you know

2548
01:36:39,109 --> 01:36:36,320
so you know what i mean you don't have

2549
01:36:40,629 --> 01:36:39,119
to leave out these experiences so but

2550
01:36:43,350 --> 01:36:40,639
let me share an experience with you here

2551
01:36:44,629 --> 01:36:43,360
alex that's really important to note and

2552
01:36:47,510 --> 01:36:44,639
it really gets at what you're talking

2553
01:36:48,950 --> 01:36:47,520
about and that is we have an experience

2554
01:36:52,470 --> 01:36:48,960
that we call the

2555
01:36:54,470 --> 01:36:52,480
sympathetic shared death experience so

2556
01:36:56,709 --> 01:36:54,480
if you remember in my book i

2557
01:36:59,350 --> 01:36:56,719
refer to sarah

2558
01:37:00,629 --> 01:36:59,360
sarah wakes up one morning in santa

2559
01:37:01,669 --> 01:37:00,639
barbara

2560
01:37:08,070 --> 01:37:01,679
and

2561
01:37:10,229 --> 01:37:08,080
very sick she throws up

2562
01:37:12,550 --> 01:37:10,239
she doesn't know what's going on um her

2563
01:37:14,390 --> 01:37:12,560
family says we're taking you to the er

2564
01:37:17,350 --> 01:37:14,400
she happens to be a paramedic she goes

2565
01:37:18,870 --> 01:37:17,360
absolutely i got to go she gets ready to

2566
01:37:19,990 --> 01:37:18,880
go and then ah she starts feeling a

2567
01:37:21,750 --> 01:37:20,000
little better she goes well hold on it

2568
01:37:23,189 --> 01:37:21,760
might be passing

2569
01:37:25,590 --> 01:37:23,199
and she gets a little better but she's

2570
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,600
still not feeling well then she gets a

2571
01:37:29,669 --> 01:37:27,280
call from

2572
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:29,679
her sister who she's very close with and

2573
01:37:32,629 --> 01:37:30,880
she says

2574
01:37:34,470 --> 01:37:32,639
sarah has some very

2575
01:37:36,629 --> 01:37:34,480
sad news for you

2576
01:37:39,590 --> 01:37:36,639
you know your niece

2577
01:37:40,790 --> 01:37:39,600
died of a drug overdose accidental drug

2578
01:37:43,030 --> 01:37:40,800
overdose

2579
01:37:44,310 --> 01:37:43,040
about an hour ago

2580
01:37:45,590 --> 01:37:44,320
and

2581
01:37:46,550 --> 01:37:45,600
sarah

2582
01:37:48,470 --> 01:37:46,560
goes

2583
01:37:51,430 --> 01:37:48,480
wow you know just broken with grief and

2584
01:37:54,229 --> 01:37:51,440
then as sarah defines so well

2585
01:37:57,270 --> 01:37:54,239
in the ensuing days

2586
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,280
she starts thinking wait a minute

2587
01:38:01,189 --> 01:37:59,280
she's a paramedic she knows what a drug

2588
01:38:03,270 --> 01:38:01,199
overdose looks like

2589
01:38:05,510 --> 01:38:03,280
she's pissing it all together and then

2590
01:38:07,669 --> 01:38:05,520
she also realizes something else

2591
01:38:11,030 --> 01:38:07,679
i thought i actually

2592
01:38:14,550 --> 01:38:11,040
in my experience i was feeling my niece

2593
01:38:17,030 --> 01:38:14,560
in some way i can't explain it but i was

2594
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:17,040
connected to i feel like i was connected

2595
01:38:21,270 --> 01:38:19,119
to her and

2596
01:38:23,669 --> 01:38:21,280
let's boil it down to the low gravy

2597
01:38:25,990 --> 01:38:23,679
sarah come to the conclusion

2598
01:38:28,870 --> 01:38:26,000
i was experiencing

2599
01:38:32,310 --> 01:38:28,880
my beloved niece's last moments of her

2600
01:38:33,830 --> 01:38:32,320
human existence and i was probably going

2601
01:38:36,229 --> 01:38:33,840
into

2602
01:38:38,870 --> 01:38:36,239
this experience of death with her i was

2603
01:38:41,350 --> 01:38:38,880
sharing her death

2604
01:38:43,590 --> 01:38:41,360
in whatever way that you know that makes

2605
01:38:44,790 --> 01:38:43,600
sense so

2606
01:38:49,270 --> 01:38:44,800
we have

2607
01:38:50,790 --> 01:38:49,280
certainly a half dozen maybe up to a

2608
01:38:53,189 --> 01:38:50,800
dozen of these experiences they come

2609
01:38:55,590 --> 01:38:53,199
with drug overdoses unfortunately also

2610
01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:55,600
with cardiac arrest you know people

2611
01:38:58,790 --> 01:38:57,360
having very people thinking they're

2612
01:39:00,790 --> 01:38:58,800
having a heart attack and then find out

2613
01:39:03,830 --> 01:39:00,800
that a loved one of theirs

2614
01:39:05,669 --> 01:39:03,840
died of a heart attack at the same time

2615
01:39:06,790 --> 01:39:05,679
so

2616
01:39:08,310 --> 01:39:06,800
these

2617
01:39:11,030 --> 01:39:08,320
talk about

2618
01:39:13,669 --> 01:39:11,040
stretching the scientific

2619
01:39:15,189 --> 01:39:13,679
materialist model that being that the

2620
01:39:18,790 --> 01:39:15,199
brain

2621
01:39:21,590 --> 01:39:18,800
responds to phenomena in the immediate

2622
01:39:23,669 --> 01:39:21,600
environment only there is no extended

2623
01:39:25,910 --> 01:39:23,679
consciousness there is no

2624
01:39:28,149 --> 01:39:25,920
the brain is the mediator through the

2625
01:39:31,030 --> 01:39:28,159
sixth sense doors all within the

2626
01:39:33,830 --> 01:39:31,040
immediate environment the sympathetic

2627
01:39:35,750 --> 01:39:33,840
shared death experience

2628
01:39:37,990 --> 01:39:35,760
blows out right out of the water now of

2629
01:39:39,430 --> 01:39:38,000
course most scientists scientific

2630
01:39:41,350 --> 01:39:39,440
materials and maybe reasonable

2631
01:39:43,430 --> 01:39:41,360
scientists would say ah you know you

2632
01:39:46,070 --> 01:39:43,440
only have a dozen cases could be

2633
01:39:47,990 --> 01:39:46,080
conjecture people get sick you know

2634
01:39:50,470 --> 01:39:48,000
whatever but

2635
01:39:51,510 --> 01:39:50,480
i don't know i i use the reasonable

2636
01:39:52,470 --> 01:39:51,520
human

2637
01:39:55,990 --> 01:39:52,480
um

2638
01:39:57,750 --> 01:39:56,000
kind of assessment and say uh-uh

2639
01:39:59,109 --> 01:39:57,760
there's too much going on here now of

2640
01:40:01,270 --> 01:39:59,119
course i've had these experiences and

2641
01:40:02,310 --> 01:40:01,280
i've studied them so i they fit in my

2642
01:40:05,030 --> 01:40:02,320
paradigm

2643
01:40:07,350 --> 01:40:05,040
um but there's one yeah

2644
01:40:09,189 --> 01:40:07,360
so that's a distressing sde

2645
01:40:10,870 --> 01:40:09,199
that you know doesn't get it some of the

2646
01:40:13,430 --> 01:40:10,880
larger multicultural questions that

2647
01:40:15,590 --> 01:40:13,440
you're bringing up but it does get at

2648
01:40:17,350 --> 01:40:15,600
this distressing part and and there are

2649
01:40:19,830 --> 01:40:17,360
a lot of people that i found that come

2650
01:40:23,990 --> 01:40:19,840
into my clinical practice who have

2651
01:40:25,510 --> 01:40:24,000
reported these and were concerned about

2652
01:40:26,790 --> 01:40:25,520
just their

2653
01:40:28,629 --> 01:40:26,800
the fact that they could have an

2654
01:40:30,390 --> 01:40:28,639
experience like this

2655
01:40:31,590 --> 01:40:30,400
doesn't mean they're vulnerable does it

2656
01:40:33,990 --> 01:40:31,600
mean there's something to matter with

2657
01:40:35,830 --> 01:40:34,000
them are they too poorest are they still

2658
01:40:38,550 --> 01:40:35,840
connected are they going to die from

2659
01:40:40,070 --> 01:40:38,560
this so all of this information i want

2660
01:40:41,109 --> 01:40:40,080
to get out as a mental health provider

2661
01:40:42,629 --> 01:40:41,119
say hey

2662
01:40:44,310 --> 01:40:42,639
this is a sympathetic shared death

2663
01:40:46,070 --> 01:40:44,320
experience it happened to you because

2664
01:40:47,830 --> 01:40:46,080
your loved one was dying you had a con

2665
01:40:50,149 --> 01:40:47,840
you have a conscious connection with

2666
01:40:53,430 --> 01:40:50,159
this person but you're not in danger of

2667
01:40:56,229 --> 01:40:53,440
dying your your health is fine

2668
01:40:58,149 --> 01:40:56,239
this is a sign of a really lovely bond

2669
01:40:59,830 --> 01:40:58,159
that you had and if i push on this i

2670
01:41:01,350 --> 01:40:59,840
think that maybe your loved one was

2671
01:41:02,790 --> 01:41:01,360
reaching out to you

2672
01:41:04,629 --> 01:41:02,800
in some way

2673
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:04,639
either asking for help or trying to say

2674
01:41:09,189 --> 01:41:05,920
goodbye

2675
01:41:11,030 --> 01:41:09,199
you're a nice guy and a good therapist

2676
01:41:12,550 --> 01:41:11,040
i don't know i don't know i i definitely

2677
01:41:13,910 --> 01:41:12,560
can't fill that role hey one other

2678
01:41:15,189 --> 01:41:13,920
question and then i want to hit some of

2679
01:41:17,510 --> 01:41:15,199
the high points

2680
01:41:19,109 --> 01:41:17,520
of the research some of the stats that i

2681
01:41:20,950 --> 01:41:19,119
think people can take away do a

2682
01:41:23,750 --> 01:41:20,960
phenomenal job again you know

2683
01:41:25,590 --> 01:41:23,760
peer-reviewed publish you're playing

2684
01:41:28,070 --> 01:41:25,600
the game the way it should be played in

2685
01:41:30,149 --> 01:41:28,080
terms of using the scientific method and

2686
01:41:32,070 --> 01:41:30,159
you know we can't totally bash science

2687
01:41:35,510 --> 01:41:32,080
and that's i guess my last question too

2688
01:41:37,430 --> 01:41:35,520
you know is the technology angle on this

2689
01:41:39,189 --> 01:41:37,440
is extremely

2690
01:41:40,790 --> 01:41:39,199
interesting challenging all those kind

2691
01:41:43,109 --> 01:41:40,800
of things so

2692
01:41:44,229 --> 01:41:43,119
when we look at near-death experience

2693
01:41:46,390 --> 01:41:44,239
science

2694
01:41:47,830 --> 01:41:46,400
you immediately go to resuscitation

2695
01:41:49,270 --> 01:41:47,840
we don't know what to make of it but

2696
01:41:51,270 --> 01:41:49,280
people are

2697
01:41:52,070 --> 01:41:51,280
being brought back to life after they

2698
01:41:54,950 --> 01:41:52,080
die

2699
01:41:56,790 --> 01:41:54,960
in ways that wasn't possible you know

2700
01:41:58,229 --> 01:41:56,800
kind of a few years ago and then if you

2701
01:41:59,910 --> 01:41:58,239
go one step further and i interviewed

2702
01:42:00,870 --> 01:41:59,920
these guys and i don't know quite what

2703
01:42:03,430 --> 01:42:00,880
to

2704
01:42:05,430 --> 01:42:03,440
make of them but i'm definitely not a

2705
01:42:07,189 --> 01:42:05,440
luddite so you know push the technology

2706
01:42:08,950 --> 01:42:07,199
forward but you look at gary schwartz

2707
01:42:11,750 --> 01:42:08,960
the university arizona they're working

2708
01:42:13,590 --> 01:42:11,760
on a soul phone they're saying hey guys

2709
01:42:15,750 --> 01:42:13,600
forget after death can you not forget

2710
01:42:17,990 --> 01:42:15,760
after death communication but let's take

2711
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:18,000
that after death communication one step

2712
01:42:22,550 --> 01:42:19,679
further and you can type out some

2713
01:42:24,470 --> 01:42:22,560
messages to the deceased

2714
01:42:25,510 --> 01:42:24,480
what do you think that is a that is you

2715
01:42:27,430 --> 01:42:25,520
know we're talking about the

2716
01:42:29,350 --> 01:42:27,440
cross-cultural and all the things we can

2717
01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:29,360
learn from the other wisdom traditions

2718
01:42:34,629 --> 01:42:32,080
the flip side of that is we might from a

2719
01:42:37,830 --> 01:42:34,639
western perspective stumble across some

2720
01:42:40,149 --> 01:42:37,840
things that are going to add some

2721
01:42:41,270 --> 01:42:40,159
you know seasoning to the stew as well

2722
01:42:43,830 --> 01:42:41,280
what do you think about the role of

2723
01:42:46,149 --> 01:42:43,840
technology in this both now and moving

2724
01:42:47,350 --> 01:42:46,159
forward

2725
01:42:49,109 --> 01:42:47,360
you know i have a good deal of respect

2726
01:42:51,350 --> 01:42:49,119
for gary schwartz's work and the cell

2727
01:42:53,189 --> 01:42:51,360
phone as you mentioned and mark pitzek

2728
01:42:54,950 --> 01:42:53,199
who's been his you know was involved

2729
01:42:57,510 --> 01:42:54,960
with i think he still is

2730
01:42:59,750 --> 01:42:57,520
these these are these are smart people

2731
01:43:02,390 --> 01:42:59,760
using the the technological means

2732
01:43:04,149 --> 01:43:02,400
available and definitely pushing us in

2733
01:43:06,950 --> 01:43:04,159
this world

2734
01:43:10,390 --> 01:43:06,960
i haven't seen a way that technology

2735
01:43:11,990 --> 01:43:10,400
could help with the sde other than this

2736
01:43:14,550 --> 01:43:12,000
notion of

2737
01:43:16,709 --> 01:43:14,560
being more formalized in making what has

2738
01:43:19,109 --> 01:43:16,719
historically been called death compacts

2739
01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:19,119
you know death agreements you do report

2740
01:43:22,709 --> 01:43:21,199
you know kind of the electromagnetic

2741
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:22,719
interference

2742
01:43:25,430 --> 01:43:24,800
part of it that is part of your thing

2743
01:43:27,669 --> 01:43:25,440
and

2744
01:43:30,629 --> 01:43:27,679
yeah i agree uh

2745
01:43:32,709 --> 01:43:30,639
yeah absolutely we definitely see

2746
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:32,719
you know all sorts of

2747
01:43:35,510 --> 01:43:34,480
which is kind of historically referred

2748
01:43:37,350 --> 01:43:35,520
to as

2749
01:43:40,310 --> 01:43:37,360
synchronicities around end of life it's

2750
01:43:43,270 --> 01:43:40,320
a type of phenomena what peter fenwick

2751
01:43:45,510 --> 01:43:43,280
and elizabeth in in from the uk

2752
01:43:47,750 --> 01:43:45,520
call as death bed coincidences and such

2753
01:43:50,830 --> 01:43:47,760
that means you know electronic

2754
01:43:54,629 --> 01:43:50,840
uh devices in particular like lights

2755
01:43:57,510 --> 01:43:54,639
flashing uh digital clocks stopping at

2756
01:43:59,669 --> 01:43:57,520
the time of death or even later

2757
01:44:02,310 --> 01:43:59,679
uh significant dates like anniversaries

2758
01:44:03,590 --> 01:44:02,320
or birth dates and things like that

2759
01:44:04,629 --> 01:44:03,600
i mean

2760
01:44:10,550 --> 01:44:04,639
i

2761
01:44:12,470 --> 01:44:10,560
any of these phenomena we are they're

2762
01:44:15,189 --> 01:44:12,480
related to end of life death and dying

2763
01:44:16,950 --> 01:44:15,199
you know we are into them and we study

2764
01:44:20,149 --> 01:44:16,960
them and we're building

2765
01:44:21,990 --> 01:44:20,159
uh a database for this and my next book

2766
01:44:23,189 --> 01:44:22,000
is going to be about the series we call

2767
01:44:25,590 --> 01:44:23,199
it the spectrum of end of life

2768
01:44:28,310 --> 01:44:25,600
experience i actually crafted this

2769
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,320
spectrum to capture this full

2770
01:44:32,070 --> 01:44:30,239
continuum of experiences that begin with

2771
01:44:34,790 --> 01:44:32,080
pre-death premonitions

2772
01:44:36,950 --> 01:44:34,800
go right through end of life uh visions

2773
01:44:38,070 --> 01:44:36,960
of visitations terminal city share death

2774
01:44:40,629 --> 01:44:38,080
experience

2775
01:44:41,750 --> 01:44:40,639
all the adc you know the post death

2776
01:44:44,070 --> 01:44:41,760
visions and visitations and

2777
01:44:46,149 --> 01:44:44,080
synchronicities throughout

2778
01:44:49,910 --> 01:44:46,159
the technological piece

2779
01:44:51,590 --> 01:44:49,920
i'm i don't haven't seen that really

2780
01:44:54,070 --> 01:44:51,600
play out other than the way that i've

2781
01:44:55,270 --> 01:44:54,080
i've seen you you know the examples you

2782
01:44:57,350 --> 01:44:55,280
you bring up

2783
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:57,360
it's absolutely clear and i think you

2784
01:45:00,870 --> 01:44:59,520
saw that in the case and and and at

2785
01:45:02,390 --> 01:45:00,880
heaven's door

2786
01:45:05,350 --> 01:45:02,400
emilia

2787
01:45:06,470 --> 01:45:05,360
b who loses her 13 year old son to

2788
01:45:09,350 --> 01:45:06,480
cancer

2789
01:45:11,109 --> 01:45:09,360
they talk about lights flashing when you

2790
01:45:11,910 --> 01:45:11,119
know when he when they talk about him

2791
01:45:16,390 --> 01:45:11,920
and

2792
01:45:18,229 --> 01:45:16,400
all this stuff that we see but i'm going

2793
01:45:19,510 --> 01:45:18,239
to tell you something i think we can do

2794
01:45:22,550 --> 01:45:19,520
better than that

2795
01:45:24,149 --> 01:45:22,560
i think that what the data that we are

2796
01:45:27,350 --> 01:45:24,159
gathering

2797
01:45:31,189 --> 01:45:27,360
is we don't need to go too far afield

2798
01:45:33,750 --> 01:45:31,199
from really hitting on the

2799
01:45:35,990 --> 01:45:33,760
the shared death experiences

2800
01:45:38,149 --> 01:45:36,000
that are reporting

2801
01:45:40,149 --> 01:45:38,159
this connection and

2802
01:45:42,870 --> 01:45:40,159
amazing phenomena

2803
01:45:45,750 --> 01:45:42,880
uh that can't be known any other way you

2804
01:45:48,070 --> 01:45:45,760
know and i just think eventually

2805
01:45:51,030 --> 01:45:48,080
as it's really this it's the credibility

2806
01:45:52,870 --> 01:45:51,040
we're looking for alex we just need an

2807
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:52,880
eben alexander

2808
01:45:57,990 --> 01:45:54,960
to to have an sde and i mean that

2809
01:46:00,870 --> 01:45:58,000
because evan is just a wonderful person

2810
01:46:03,669 --> 01:46:00,880
he had a you know a neurosurgeon

2811
01:46:05,990 --> 01:46:03,679
associate professor at harvard

2812
01:46:07,109 --> 01:46:06,000
well-respected wonderful man

2813
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:07,119
thoughtful

2814
01:46:11,030 --> 01:46:08,800
we need some more

2815
01:46:13,030 --> 01:46:11,040
you know people of that stature to speak

2816
01:46:15,189 --> 01:46:13,040
up i look at i am very well received i

2817
01:46:17,830 --> 01:46:15,199
am grateful that when people hear me

2818
01:46:21,270 --> 01:46:17,840
talk and my colleagues at the medical

2819
01:46:24,070 --> 01:46:21,280
community are very receptive but we need

2820
01:46:26,070 --> 01:46:24,080
a major influencer to come out and help

2821
01:46:28,470 --> 01:46:26,080
us i think that's going to do more than

2822
01:46:29,270 --> 01:46:28,480
anything um in these and i don't know if

2823
01:46:30,629 --> 01:46:29,280
i'm answering your questions

2824
01:46:32,550 --> 01:46:30,639
specifically about the technology i just

2825
01:46:35,270 --> 01:46:32,560
don't i what i'm talking when i think

2826
01:46:37,350 --> 01:46:35,280
technology i'm thinking the electrical

2827
01:46:39,030 --> 01:46:37,360
stimulation that happens around a death

2828
01:46:41,189 --> 01:46:39,040
and dying of which is well noted in the

2829
01:46:43,830 --> 01:46:41,199
literature

2830
01:46:44,790 --> 01:46:43,840
so as we wrap things up here let's talk

2831
01:46:47,109 --> 01:46:44,800
about

2832
01:46:49,030 --> 01:46:47,119
some of the numbers some of the stats

2833
01:46:50,790 --> 01:46:49,040
because they are helpful and they come

2834
01:46:52,950 --> 01:46:50,800
through in your in your research and

2835
01:46:55,430 --> 01:46:52,960
again folks this is real peer-reviewed

2836
01:46:57,510 --> 01:46:55,440
research as william said published in

2837
01:46:59,270 --> 01:46:57,520
you know really the top journal in his

2838
01:47:00,629 --> 01:46:59,280
field which is all you can ever go to

2839
01:47:02,629 --> 01:47:00,639
just because you've never heard of that

2840
01:47:04,709 --> 01:47:02,639
journal doesn't mean anything you're not

2841
01:47:08,030 --> 01:47:04,719
in his field so

2842
01:47:10,390 --> 01:47:08,040
it hit on some of these they're from the

2843
01:47:11,510 --> 01:47:10,400
sharedcrossing.com website under

2844
01:47:13,430 --> 01:47:11,520
research

2845
01:47:14,790 --> 01:47:13,440
and for there you can also find all the

2846
01:47:17,590 --> 01:47:14,800
other things we talk about you can look

2847
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:17,600
at events media you can connect with

2848
01:47:22,310 --> 01:47:20,239
these folks in a meaningful way but

2849
01:47:24,470 --> 01:47:22,320
which one of these stats do you think we

2850
01:47:26,070 --> 01:47:24,480
might want to touch on

2851
01:47:28,550 --> 01:47:26,080
i think they're all

2852
01:47:29,669 --> 01:47:28,560
spectacular i think the one that you

2853
01:47:31,189 --> 01:47:29,679
know

2854
01:47:33,430 --> 01:47:31,199
64

2855
01:47:34,950 --> 01:47:33,440
of share death experiences happen

2856
01:47:37,590 --> 01:47:34,960
remotely that means they're not at

2857
01:47:39,189 --> 01:47:37,600
bedside and when raymond you know was

2858
01:47:41,510 --> 01:47:39,199
raymond moody was doing his initial

2859
01:47:42,470 --> 01:47:41,520
research on this he was dealing only

2860
01:47:44,149 --> 01:47:42,480
with

2861
01:47:46,470 --> 01:47:44,159
bedside accounts

2862
01:47:49,350 --> 01:47:46,480
but then when i did a lit review

2863
01:47:51,189 --> 01:47:49,360
i started you know basically seeing the

2864
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:51,199
research done by peter and elizabeth

2865
01:47:55,030 --> 01:47:53,280
fennick in great britain and they were

2866
01:47:56,950 --> 01:47:55,040
having these death bed coincidences well

2867
01:47:58,390 --> 01:47:56,960
these were essentially

2868
01:48:01,350 --> 01:47:58,400
share death experiences but they were

2869
01:48:03,750 --> 01:48:01,360
remote they were not at bedside and so

2870
01:48:05,430 --> 01:48:03,760
and then when i put out um you know when

2871
01:48:07,430 --> 01:48:05,440
i started giving talks around this and

2872
01:48:10,550 --> 01:48:07,440
reaching out to my colleagues

2873
01:48:13,030 --> 01:48:10,560
and creating a larger net of interest if

2874
01:48:15,270 --> 01:48:13,040
you will then we we found out that with

2875
01:48:18,390 --> 01:48:15,280
our you know many hundreds of cases now

2876
01:48:20,390 --> 01:48:18,400
that 64 of these seem two-thirds roughly

2877
01:48:21,189 --> 01:48:20,400
are remote so that's interesting to

2878
01:48:23,510 --> 01:48:21,199
people

2879
01:48:25,109 --> 01:48:23,520
um here's another piece that is that i

2880
01:48:26,709 --> 01:48:25,119
find probably of all the phenomena here

2881
01:48:29,350 --> 01:48:26,719
this is probably the most interesting to

2882
01:48:31,669 --> 01:48:29,360
me is because i'm one of these 41

2883
01:48:34,390 --> 01:48:31,679
percent of people report having more

2884
01:48:37,270 --> 01:48:34,400
than one sde so that means there's

2885
01:48:39,430 --> 01:48:37,280
something happening for these people

2886
01:48:40,470 --> 01:48:39,440
and i'm going to suggest it's some sort

2887
01:48:43,109 --> 01:48:40,480
of

2888
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:43,119
energetic constitutional

2889
01:48:46,550 --> 01:48:45,600
change at the at the dome at the level

2890
01:48:48,629 --> 01:48:46,560
of

2891
01:48:49,910 --> 01:48:48,639
psychic spiritual structure whatever

2892
01:48:53,590 --> 01:48:49,920
that means that's probably a lot of

2893
01:48:56,149 --> 01:48:53,600
mumbo jumbo but um but you get the point

2894
01:48:57,270 --> 01:48:56,159
because you know i'm an adapt in the

2895
01:48:59,750 --> 01:48:57,280
sense that

2896
01:49:01,350 --> 01:48:59,760
if i i once i had my near-death

2897
01:49:02,790 --> 01:49:01,360
experience you know i started i had

2898
01:49:04,870 --> 01:49:02,800
another near-death experience and i had

2899
01:49:06,229 --> 01:49:04,880
shared death experiences and yeah and

2900
01:49:08,709 --> 01:49:06,239
now when you get me around death and

2901
01:49:10,870 --> 01:49:08,719
dying i'm just easy to have them so and

2902
01:49:12,709 --> 01:49:10,880
we and most people many people are that

2903
01:49:14,550 --> 01:49:12,719
way it's like once you have one it

2904
01:49:15,990 --> 01:49:14,560
begets more

2905
01:49:17,910 --> 01:49:16,000
and so the other thing is these

2906
01:49:19,350 --> 01:49:17,920
meditation practices

2907
01:49:20,229 --> 01:49:19,360
um

2908
01:49:21,669 --> 01:49:20,239
are

2909
01:49:23,830 --> 01:49:21,679
you know we know that mindfulness

2910
01:49:26,470 --> 01:49:23,840
practices really

2911
01:49:28,310 --> 01:49:26,480
seem to be uh helpful and and having

2912
01:49:30,149 --> 01:49:28,320
people have these experiences so that's

2913
01:49:32,790 --> 01:49:30,159
64 of our

2914
01:49:34,070 --> 01:49:32,800
research uh respondents

2915
01:49:35,830 --> 01:49:34,080
expressed that they have a mindfulness

2916
01:49:38,470 --> 01:49:35,840
practice and that can be meditation that

2917
01:49:40,950 --> 01:49:38,480
can be prayer that can be yoga

2918
01:49:44,070 --> 01:49:40,960
and the last thing that i love is that

2919
01:49:48,390 --> 01:49:44,080
you know almost 80 79 of our people who

2920
01:49:51,030 --> 01:49:48,400
have an sde are likely to have another

2921
01:49:53,030 --> 01:49:51,040
experience we call them shared crossings

2922
01:49:55,109 --> 01:49:53,040
another type of

2923
01:49:58,229 --> 01:49:55,119
spiritual experience related to death

2924
01:50:00,550 --> 01:49:58,239
and dying and that's really amazing

2925
01:50:03,189 --> 01:50:00,560
because that means that

2926
01:50:05,990 --> 01:50:03,199
once you have an sde you're now

2927
01:50:08,950 --> 01:50:06,000
kind of more open or available to have

2928
01:50:11,350 --> 01:50:08,960
other communications with the deceased

2929
01:50:14,070 --> 01:50:11,360
and kind of have what we call a

2930
01:50:15,750 --> 01:50:14,080
continuing bond an ongoing relationship

2931
01:50:16,709 --> 01:50:15,760
with your departed loved one or loved

2932
01:50:19,109 --> 01:50:16,719
ones

2933
01:50:21,910 --> 01:50:19,119
awesome now the other stat that jumped

2934
01:50:23,030 --> 01:50:21,920
out at me is 87 percent of those

2935
01:50:24,790 --> 01:50:23,040
interviewed reported that their

2936
01:50:27,030 --> 01:50:24,800
experience had left them

2937
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:27,040
absolutely convinced

2938
01:50:31,109 --> 01:50:29,440
that there's a benevolent afterlife

2939
01:50:34,550 --> 01:50:31,119
yeah wow that's

2940
01:50:36,950 --> 01:50:34,560
game changer yeah game changing but also

2941
01:50:39,589 --> 01:50:36,960
matches the nde literature as well

2942
01:50:42,470 --> 01:50:39,599
correct correct good point so folks

2943
01:50:43,669 --> 01:50:42,480
again our guest has been william peters

2944
01:50:45,350 --> 01:50:43,679
the new book

2945
01:50:46,790 --> 01:50:45,360
i hope you check out i think you really

2946
01:50:47,669 --> 01:50:46,800
really enjoy it i think you're going to

2947
01:50:49,910 --> 01:50:47,679
want to

2948
01:50:51,669 --> 01:50:49,920
share it with other people in your life

2949
01:50:52,470 --> 01:50:51,679
because so many people you know once you

2950
01:50:58,229 --> 01:50:52,480
start

2951
01:51:01,030 --> 01:50:58,239
you'll open up people in a way but it's

2952
01:51:02,390 --> 01:51:01,040
at heaven's door what shared journeys to

2953
01:51:04,790 --> 01:51:02,400
the afterlife

2954
01:51:07,910 --> 01:51:04,800
teaches about dying well

2955
01:51:10,470 --> 01:51:07,920
and living better william awesome work

2956
01:51:13,270 --> 01:51:10,480
my man you are so to be congratulated

2957
01:51:15,510 --> 01:51:13,280
i'm so so happy you joined me here

2958
01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:15,520
yeah thank you alex and if i can't i

2959
01:51:18,870 --> 01:51:16,480
just want to

2960
01:51:20,390 --> 01:51:18,880
remind your viewers that there's a lot

2961
01:51:22,070 --> 01:51:20,400
of resources on our website

2962
01:51:24,070 --> 01:51:22,080
sharedcrossing.com

2963
01:51:26,310 --> 01:51:24,080
uh there's a video library for people to

2964
01:51:28,149 --> 01:51:26,320
see firsthand experience firsthand

2965
01:51:30,950 --> 01:51:28,159
accounts from experiencers

2966
01:51:32,310 --> 01:51:30,960
and then if i may i have a great event

2967
01:51:34,390 --> 01:51:32,320
with uh

2968
01:51:36,310 --> 01:51:34,400
it's a free event with dr raymond moody

2969
01:51:38,229 --> 01:51:36,320
we're going to be talking about how the

2970
01:51:40,229 --> 01:51:38,239
shared death experience changes

2971
01:51:42,149 --> 01:51:40,239
everything and you know raymond is you

2972
01:51:44,070 --> 01:51:42,159
know he is the one who popularized the

2973
01:51:46,310 --> 01:51:44,080
term share death experience and i came

2974
01:51:47,990 --> 01:51:46,320
in with him you know afterwards to

2975
01:51:49,990 --> 01:51:48,000
really have done the deeper research and

2976
01:51:51,669 --> 01:51:50,000
my team you know should be

2977
01:51:53,510 --> 01:51:51,679
i should you know i want to let everyone

2978
01:51:55,589 --> 01:51:53,520
know that i have a research team of dr

2979
01:51:57,510 --> 01:51:55,599
michael kinsella and dr monica williams

2980
01:51:59,270 --> 01:51:57,520
and others here that really have

2981
01:52:01,510 --> 01:51:59,280
forwarded this but that's a great event

2982
01:52:02,870 --> 01:52:01,520
with dr raymond moody and myself on

2983
01:52:05,430 --> 01:52:02,880
march 12th you can find it on our

2984
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:05,440
website awesome i hope people check that

2985
01:52:10,550 --> 01:52:07,840
out i'm not sure this will be up in time

2986
01:52:12,550 --> 01:52:10,560
but okay uh oh yeah sorry about it i can

2987
01:52:14,629 --> 01:52:12,560
send out i can send out a note or

2988
01:52:16,149 --> 01:52:14,639
something if you if you send me the link

2989
01:52:17,350 --> 01:52:16,159
okay because it's a free event i mean

2990
01:52:19,510 --> 01:52:17,360
it's a great event we're just trying to

2991
01:52:20,390 --> 01:52:19,520
get the word out and yeah

2992
01:52:22,390 --> 01:52:20,400
great

2993
01:52:24,790 --> 01:52:22,400
well again terrific having you on i

2994
01:52:26,310 --> 01:52:24,800
really appreciate it fantastic thank you

2995
01:52:28,310 --> 01:52:26,320
you know it's funny my publicist said

2996
01:52:30,149 --> 01:52:28,320
that you were gonna be kind of hard on

2997
01:52:32,070 --> 01:52:30,159
me and i didn't i thought you were just

2998
01:52:34,629 --> 01:52:32,080
you're you're not hard at all you're

2999
01:52:36,790 --> 01:52:34,639
just a great engaged interviewer really

3000
01:52:38,950 --> 01:52:36,800
the best one i've done and i've done a

3001
01:52:40,149 --> 01:52:38,960
fair amount of them um

3002
01:52:41,589 --> 01:52:40,159
but the other one who did a really good

3003
01:52:43,510 --> 01:52:41,599
one i think is a call i listened to your

3004
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:43,520
interview with rick art uh rick archer i

3005
01:52:47,350 --> 01:52:45,360
thought you know yeah rick's my buddy

3006
01:52:48,870 --> 01:52:47,360
yeah he did really good job

3007
01:52:50,709 --> 01:52:48,880
yeah well you guys both give long

3008
01:52:53,830 --> 01:52:50,719
interviews this is uh almost two hours

3009
01:52:55,589 --> 01:52:53,840
so uh i i just didn't want i just wanted

3010
01:52:58,550 --> 01:52:55,599
to get through it and i didn't want to

3011
01:52:59,990 --> 01:52:58,560
kind of i never go this long but i just

3012
01:53:02,229 --> 01:53:00,000
wanted to cover

3013
01:53:04,709 --> 01:53:02,239
what we had to cover because

3014
01:53:08,149 --> 01:53:04,719
this is so you know this is your life

3015
01:53:10,149 --> 01:53:08,159
but i mean this is so so important on

3016
01:53:11,910 --> 01:53:10,159
all these different levels so i

3017
01:53:14,390 --> 01:53:11,920
appreciate you spending the extra time

3018
01:53:15,750 --> 01:53:14,400
thank you so much alex

3019
01:53:17,830 --> 01:53:15,760
thanks again to william peters for

3020
01:53:19,830 --> 01:53:17,840
joining me today on skeptico one

3021
01:53:21,830 --> 01:53:19,840
question i t up from this interview the

3022
01:53:24,310 --> 01:53:21,840
obvious one what do you make of the

3023
01:53:27,270 --> 01:53:24,320
shared death experience i think it's

3024
01:53:28,790 --> 01:53:27,280
incredibly important scientifically

3025
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:28,800
what do you think

3026
01:53:32,950 --> 01:53:30,000
let me know

3027
01:53:35,350 --> 01:53:32,960
love to hear from you love to hear from

3028
01:53:37,030 --> 01:53:35,360
folks who are listening

3029
01:53:39,669 --> 01:53:37,040
anyways there's some more great episodes

3030
01:53:41,430 --> 01:53:39,679
coming up i promise you that next one oh

3031
01:53:43,750 --> 01:53:41,440
my gosh this is

3032
01:53:45,750 --> 01:53:43,760
i don't know i'm still i'm still rocked

3033
01:53:47,910 --> 01:53:45,760
by the next one

3034
01:53:50,550 --> 01:53:47,920
anyways stick around for all of that

3035
01:53:52,620 --> 01:53:50,560
until next time take care

3036
01:53:59,150 --> 01:53:52,630
bye for now